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Old 02-22-2009, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,897,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navarroemily View Post
I am the wife of a Mexican Immigrant, now in his 50's, who moved here with his unlces when he was just a teen. He is perfectly legal, but people treat him as if he has the plague! He is a very well rounded man, and knows more about the American government and politics than I could ever dream of knowing. I am proud to say that I am the mother of 2 American Mexicans. My 2 children have ehtnic names, both being named after their forefathers, and were raised with Mexican culture.
I think that's so cool that you can raise your kids, and have no qualms with sharing their father's culture with them. They will grow up with a rich experience of living in American culture, and still being able to experience some of the culture of their father's heritage.
Some people are scared of that.

 
Old 02-22-2009, 11:03 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
"Take my word for it". What the hell does your word mean? Who are you? Do you even know what I mean by our unity?
From your previous posts, of course you would be against the time when we saw ourselves as a group that was a part of America, and began to become a part of this country. We made our voice in this country heard, and that bothers people like you who think the days before the minorities got a voice and found identity were the good days.
You always talk about how it's such a bad thing that these minority groups unite and speak for their interests. Do you really think this was a better country when all those groups were simply marginalized?

At first I assumed you were stuck on the Brown Berets, MeCha , and all that stuff I wasn't talking about.
But I forget that you are against minority ethnic groups(i.e. Latinos) having a distinct voice in this country at all.

You're talking about YOUR feelings on Chicanos/Latinos being united, and the few you've encountered who agree with YOUR views.
I like people in this country having a voice in their own destiny. I do NOT like people from other countries sneaking in here and having a voice in this country, any more than I'd expect to have a voice in THEIR country. And I don't appreciate a neighbor country abusing its poor, causing them to leave, and then scolding MY country for abusing them. And I don't appreciate those who come here illegally, and who normally get to stay on, expressing more hate and ill-feeling for MY country, where they live, than for their OWN country, which squeezed them out.

Yes, I AM a little suspicious of 'ethnic politics'. We have WAY too many ethnic groups here for each and every one of them to feel separate and distinct, and for each and every one of them to be able to look out for ITS members, and not for others. This is a multi-racial, multi-ethnic country, not some kind of a stupid, childish 'contest' between bickering, hostile 'tribes'.

You feel 'pumped up' about illegal immigrants because your 'group loyalty' to Mexican illegals overrides your sense of connectedness to your fellow American citizens...you're a textbook example of why I distrust ethnic politics...your ethnicity is the lens through which you see American society, and you see illegal Mexicans as more a part of your 'group' than you see ME. I couldn't have picked a better example of why ethnic politics DOESN'T work.

You feel able to 'beat the drum' for illegals, because you're confident that the overwhelming percentage of them are "your people"...Mexicans (or, to be extra safe, you often say 'Mexicans/ Guatemalans/ Salvadorans'). You can 'plead the cause' of illegals knowing that by doing so, you're 'pleading the cause of your people'....whether they belong here or not. (And I assure you, you're NOT pleading the cause of many of 'your people' who came up the HARD way...legally).

I can confidently say, though, that your interest goes no farther than some vague, immature, childish notion of 'ethnic solidarity', and that if tomorrow, we woke up to find we had NO illegals among 'your people'....and instead, we had 20 million illegal Kenyans, or Germans, or Greeks, or Afghans, your "concern" for illegals would vanish in TWO DAYS.... and in about a week, you'd be SERIOUSLY complaining about 'all these NEW illegals, who don't belong here, and they should all go home'. It would be easy for you to say that then, because suddenly they wouldn't be 'your people'...they'd just be an ungrateful bunch of trespassers in your country, lowering wages, overtaxing the social support system, and making you angry.

That's how MOST people feel about illegals today. You would, TOO...if not for the fact that they're 'your people', that you're unable to see them objectively, and that you view their trespassing as 'different' than that of 'regular' trespassers.

That's ethnic politics 101, pure and simple.....and you can count your lucky stars that SO far, it involves only ONE group of 'lawbreakers'. Lucky for YOU that all OTHER groups don't demand the same concessions for THEIR group that you demand for yours. I guess most groups would probably be ashamed to act that way...it's just not dignified. When you begin to understand THAT, perhaps you'll see why so many people are mad at 'your group'...even some of the people you THINK are 'members of your group', but don't define themselves by your rules.

Last edited by macmeal; 02-22-2009 at 11:21 PM..
 
Old 02-22-2009, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Where laws can be ignored due to political correctness
1,111 posts, read 1,581,916 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I like people in this country having a voice in their own destiny. I do NOT like people from other countries having a voice in this country, any more than I'd expect to have a voice in THEIR country.

Yes, I AM a little suspicious of 'ethnic politics'. We have WAY too many ethnic groups here for each and every one of them to feel separate and distinct, and for each and every one of them to be able to loo0k out for ITS members, and not for others.

You feel 'pumped up' about illegal immigrants because your 'group loyalty' to Mexican illegals overrides your sense of connectedness to your fellow American citizens...you're a textbook example of why I distrust ethnic politics...your ethnicity is the lens through which you see American society, and you see illegal Mexicans as more a part of your 'group' than you see ME. I couldn't have picked a better example of why ethnic politics DOESN'T work.

You feel able to 'beat the drum' for illegals, because you're confident that the overwhelming percentage of them are "your people"...Mexicans (or, to be extra safe, you often say 'Mexicans/ Guatemalans/ Salvadorans'). You can 'plead the cause' of illegals knowing that by doing so, you're 'pleading the cause of your people'....whether they belong here or not. (And I assure you, you're NOT pleading the cause of many of 'your people' who came up the HARD way...legally).

I can condidently say, though, that your interest goes no farther than some vague notion of 'ethnic solidarity', and if tomorrow we woke up to find we had NO illegals among 'your people'....and 20 million illegal Kenyans, or Germans, or Afghans, your "concern" for illegals would vanish in two days, and in about a week, you'd be SERIUOSLY complaining about 'all these NEW illegals, who don't belong here, and they should all go home'. It would be easy for you to say that, because suddenly they wouldn't be 'your people'...they'd just be trespassers in your country.

That's how MOST people feel about illegals today. You would, TOO...if not for the fact that they're 'your people', and their trespassing is 'different' than that of 'regular' trespassers.

That's ethnic politics, and you can count your lucky stars that SO far, it involves only ONE group of 'lawbreakers'. Lucky for YOU that all OTHER groups don't demand the concessions for THEIR group that you demand for yours.
Thank you for speaking the truth.
 
Old 02-22-2009, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,897,766 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I like people in this country having a voice in their own destiny. I do NOT like people from other countries having a voice in this country, any more than I'd expect to have a voice in THEIR country.

Yes, I AM a little suspicious of 'ethnic politics'. We have WAY too many ethnic groups here for each and every one of them to feel separate and distinct, and for each and every one of them to be able to loo0k out for ITS members, and not for others.

You feel 'pumped up' about illegal immigrants because your 'group loyalty' to Mexican illegals overrides your sense of connectedness to your fellow American citizens...you're a textbook example of why I distrust ethnic politics...your ethnicity is the lens through which you see American society, and you see illegal Mexicans as more a part of your 'group' than you see ME. I couldn't have picked a better example of why ethnic politics DOESN'T work.

You feel able to 'beat the drum' for illegals, because you're confident that the overwhelming percentage of them are "your people"...Mexicans (or, to be extra safe, you often say 'Mexicans/ Guatemalans/ Salvadorans'). You can 'plead the cause' of illegals knowing that by doing so, you're 'pleading the cause of your people'....whether they belong here or not. (And I assure you, you're NOT pleading the cause of many of 'your people' who came up the HARD way...legally).

I can condidently say, though, that your interest goes no farther than some vague notion of 'ethnic solidarity', and if tomorrow we woke up to find we had NO illegals among 'your people'....and 20 million illegal Kenyans, or Germans, or Afghans, your "concern" for illegals would vanish in two days, and in about a week, you'd be SERIUOSLY complaining about 'all these NEW illegals, who don't belong here, and they should all go home'. It would be easy for you to say that, because suddenly they wouldn't be 'your people'...they'd just be trespassers in your country.

That's how MOST people feel about illegals today. You would, TOO...if not for the fact that they're 'your people', and their trespassing is 'different' than that of 'regular' trespassers.

That's ethnic politics, and you can count your lucky stars that SO far, it involves only ONE group of 'lawbreakers'. Lucky for YOU that all OTHER groups don't demand the concessions for THEIR group that you demand for yours.

Where do I show that I'm "pumped" for illegal aliens? How do I "beat the drum" for illegals?
Why does that come out of me being proud of Mexican-American(Chicano) culture?
Why is it that when I'm talking about Chicanos(Mexican-Americans) being "my people", you immediately draw lines to illegal aliens?
Especially when that stemmed from me discussing the Chicano contributions to the civil rights of the 60s?

How can you confidently say how I would feel, if you're not me, if the illegals were not Latino? Besides being constantly condescending, with a know-it-all attitude, are you also a psychic of some sort?
There's plenty of people who think like me about this issue, that AREN'T Mexican-American or Latino.
If the illegal obsession and stigma was attached to another group, I VERY MUCH DOUBT I'd be like some of you. And I'm speaking as myself. Just like you tried to speak for Chicanos, you can't speak for me better than I can myself.
You're pointing the finger at the wrong guy. You need to switch the size of that brush you're painting me with. I'm not the extremist you need to be worried about. I'm not exreme at all in my beliefs, yet you can't help grouping me in with those you fear.

You're like the others in that whenever you hear about someone talking about Mexicans or Mexican-Americans, your quick word association turns up "illegal issues".


Tell me, with what I was talking about, in the CONTEXT I was talking about it in, why did you steer it in the way of the illegal issue?

And you didn't answer my question. Was America a better place before these pesky "ethnic" minorities starting speaking up in their interests? When they were simply marginalized?
 
Old 02-22-2009, 11:41 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Where do I show that I'm "pumped" for illegal aliens? How do I "beat the drum" for illegals?
Why does that come out of me being proud of Mexican-American(Chicano) culture?
Why is it that when I'm talking about Chicanos(Mexican-Americans) being "my people", you immediately draw lines to illegal aliens?
Especially when that stemmed from me discussing the Chicano contributions to the civil rights of the 60s?

How can you confidently say how I would feel, if you're not me, if the illegals were not Latino? Besides being constantly condescending, with a know-it-all attitude, are you also a psychic of some sort?
There's plenty of people who think like me about this issue, that AREN'T Mexican-American or Latino.
If the illegal obsession and stigma was attached to another group, I VERY MUCH DOUBT I'd be like some of you. And I'm speaking as myself. Just like you tried to speak for Chicanos, you can't speak for me better than I can myself.
You're pointing the finger at the wrong guy. You need to switch the size of that brush you're painting me with. I'm not the extremist you need to be worried about. I'm not exreme at all in my beliefs, yet you can't help grouping me in with those you fear.

You're like the others in that whenever you hear about someone talking about Mexicans or Mexican-Americans, your quick word association turns up "illegal issues".


Tell me, with what I was talking about, in the CONTEXT I was talking about it in, why did you steer it in the way of the illegal issue?

And you didn't answer my question. Was America a better place before these pesky "ethnic" minorities starting speaking up in their interests? When they were simply marginalized?
You gave me the 'benefit of the doubt' privately, just moments ago...and you were correct; I was sincere. Now I'll give YOU the benefit of the doubt. Maybe your great interest is NOT in excusing illegals, clouding the issue over their 'guilt', or making every effort to obfuscate the issue at every turn. Maybe you don't want illegals here, and don't approve of their taking advantage of the system, of our guilt and generosity, and taking advantage of the struggle YOUR PEOPLE made by claiming to now be 'shareholders' and beneficiaries of YOUR struggle. ...I'll assume that's your position.

But I have to tell you, I can't tell it from your writings...I really can't. My position has ALWAYS been to defend Hispanics against the 'loonies' (partially for my own self-interest), while condemning the behavior of illegal immigrants as an insult to the laws of OUR country...yours and mine.

I don't get that feeling in your posts..I really don't. I see you defending Mexicans..(with maybe a token mention of Guatemalans thrown in) against EVERYBODY ELSE...."Mexicans" come first, the good, the bad, the illegal, etc., because they're 'your people', and everyone else is just "others".

That's the impression I get...I may be mistaken, but I don't see you as ever seeing illegal immigration as a problem, EVER...If you do, I've missed it.
"Pesky minorities" refers to Americans....not foreign citizens. And yes, I'm glad 'pesky minorities' have their rights. I do NOT think foreigners have the right to 'get on the minority bandwagon' though...they're not part of our society, and their struggle lies elsewhere.
 
Old 02-23-2009, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by navarroemily View Post
I am the wife of a Mexican Immigrant, now in his 50's, who moved here with his unlces when he was just a teen. He is perfectly legal, but people treat him as if he has the plague! He is a very well rounded man, and knows more about the American government and politics than I could ever dream of knowing. I am proud to say that I am the mother of 2 American Mexicans. My 2 children have ehtnic names, both being named after their forefathers, and were raised with Mexican culture.
I see no pride in that------------raising your children in 'Mexican' culture here in the USA. Now: had you decided to raise them as Americans; I would honor and respect what you had done.

Before you dare spout off any 'racist' rhetoric: just remember that I was saddled with a stereotypical Hungarian first name (yuck!) and my surname, also Hungarian sounds 'Hispanic'. Needless to say: people would stereotype me by my name till they saw me in person whereupon their jaws would drop to the floor. I rather resemble Thor vs. Igor.

BTW: I had said name legally changed
 
Old 02-23-2009, 07:40 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,708,999 times
Reputation: 1284
Quote:
Originally Posted by navarroemily View Post
I don't understand all the hate that has escalated since the economy has taken a downfall.
I am sure you don't.

Quote:
I guess we have to blame someone, and why blame ourselves? We can only blame countless individuals who DO take part in their communities. Many of these people have been here for several decades, living productive lives, PAYING WAGE TAXES (without a refund), and paying bills, raising their own families (Americans).
If they are in the US illegally, whose stolen SS# are they using to work? Or are they using a SS# somebody made up and put on the SS card they bought? Using a forged or stolen SS# is a felony here in the US.

Quote:
After all this time and effort would you really say that "Josefina", a 75 yr old woman that has lived here since she was a child, is a criminal??? I do not agree!
It makes no difference how old this woman is. It does not matter if she was a waitress at the Last Supper. If she is here illegally, she needs to be returned to her homeland. (hint: it's not the US)
 
Old 02-23-2009, 07:45 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,032,296 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I see no pride in that------------raising your children in 'Mexican' culture here in the USA. Now: had you decided to raise them as Americans; I would honor and respect what you had done.

Before you dare spout off any 'racist' rhetoric: just remember that I was saddled with a stereotypical Hungarian first name (yuck!) and my surname, also Hungarian sounds 'Hispanic'. Needless to say: people would stereotype me by my name till they saw me in person whereupon their jaws would drop to the floor. I rather resemble Thor vs. Igor.

BTW: I had said name legally changed

You know, there is a fine line between honoring the past and elevating it. Yes, we are all here due to our immigrant ancestors. It is a great thing to acknowledge that and even to celebrate ethnic foods/language/music etc...
But not at the expense of our true culture -- American. Which really is a culture made up of a lot of different cultures, to be sure. Still, I may make an equally fierce kolache, kimbop, and enchiladas but make no mistake - my cultural allegiance lies soley with the US. After all ..... my ancestors did not want to be Irish/English/Scottish/Czech/Dane/Norwegian (and the many, many other ethnicities lying in my gene pool) anymore. No, they made frightening sea voyages to leave the 'old country' behind. And they did not do that so I could embrace my 'people' over the land that they helped to build.
 
Old 02-23-2009, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
You know, there is a fine line between honoring the past and elevating it. Yes, we are all here due to our immigrant ancestors. It is a great thing to acknowledge that and even to celebrate ethnic foods/language/music etc...
But not at the expense of our true culture -- American. Which really is a culture made up of a lot of different cultures, to be sure. Still, I may make an equally fierce kolache, kimbop, and enchiladas but make no mistake - my cultural allegiance lies soley with the US. After all ..... my ancestors did not want to be Irish/English/Scottish/Czech/Dane/Norwegian (and the many, many other ethnicities lying in my gene pool) anymore. No, they made frightening sea voyages to leave the 'old country' behind. And they did not do that so I could embrace my 'people' over the land that they helped to build.
Very true.............although in my case; very little of Hungarian culture interests me. If anything: I have more interest in certain aspects in Hispanic culture as in housing styles, some of the clothes (serapes (sp) definitely do their intended job along with sombreros, etc), foods ( a good carne asada burrito hits the spot ), Peruvian flute music, etc.
 
Old 02-23-2009, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
You roll your eyes and everything? Your attitude is part of the reason theres so much tension between Chicanos and Blacks community-wise.

So arrogant, self-centered, and think everything is about Blacks in this countries past struggle for civil rights.[/b] Don't look(?) like an idiot and read, and study more about the issue. The civil rights movement wasn't a Black-White thing.

I bet you don't even know how Mendez v. Westminster predated Brown v. Board of Education by like 8 years.



While you're at it, read about Hernadez v. Texas.

You sound just like the racists of the 50s, smirking at "your people".
Ignorant as hell.


You're not from California, or the Southwest, and you need to learn about more than your small part of the country.
And also LEARN that Chicanos/Latinos didn't just arrive in this country, and are not all illegal. You don't know sh__ about the Latino history in this country.
Whoopty doo! There were numerous court decisions prior to Brown v. Board of Education. However, to your utter dismay, this case is one of the foremost landmark cases in U.S. History. I’m sorry if the cases involving “your people” didn’t earn the same level of distinction, but such is life.

A few court cases involving Mexican-Americans do not equate to a civil rights movement; and only in your most delusional fantastical world did Mexican-Americans launch a movement remotely equivalent to the magnitude of blacks during THE Civil Rights Movement.

I have told you before (repeatedly), and I reiterate -- this is NOT a competition between black and brown oppression. There is no comparison. I am well aware blacks were not the only group discriminated against in this country. However, during the last century, the bigotry and oppression against blacks in this country is unparalleled. I can’t rewrite history -- it is what it is.

The Mexican-Americans of the past were decent, hardworking people. They were here for a better life, and they deserved the same rights and privileges as other Americans. They were humble, and very appreciative; unlike the ILLEGAL Mexicans who are arrogant ingrates, and are only here to take what they can. Herein lies the difference. I respect and applaud the efforts of the former; and I feel nothing but contempt for the latter.

Your indignation and hostility are sorely misplaced. You, and your ilk, in your inane quest to defend the lawlessness of Mexican illegal aliens, have sullied the good reputation of Mexican-Americans, and Hispanics in general. The damage may be irreparable. If you want to blame someone for the disdainful sentiment so prevalent today toward “your people,” you need only to look in the mirror. You SHOULD be angry. However, your anger should be directed inward. It is people like YOU who are the culprits, not those who oppose illegal immigration. YOU have created this monster. Now YOU must suffer the consequences. Sadly, other innocent people must also suffer.

I have many Mexican and Hispanic friends who do NOT share your point of view. They are disgusted with illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is destroying the image of Hispanics much like the ignorant miscreants who perpetually tarnish the image of Black America.

You can hurl insults at me until the cows come home. Sorry to disappoint you, but I won’t reciprocate. I realize spewing accusations of racism is truly your only recourse, given that you have nothing substantive to offer to rebut me or any other poster. Moreover, your derailment of each thread with your incessant injection of racism is truly growing tiresome.

By the way, isn’t it YOU who kept claiming there is no tension between blacks and Hispanics -- it’s only gang related?
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