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Old 02-09-2009, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Yes, I can tell. Many of you are level-headed, intelligent, and seemingly thoughtful folks... so I wasn't saying everyone here is a racist, although many are, which is why posters are hesitant to participate here. And for the record, I don't think anyone is in FAVOR of illegal immigration - we just aren't in favor of demoralizing illegal immigrants, conducting "witch hunts," don't support shipping them back, and certainly don't advocate violence (as some here do). I have a humanistic view of this issue, which is possibly naive, but something I cannot change about myself.
And I can respect your feelings.

The problem is now the USA is going into core survival mode with the economy and we need to take care of our own-----------hence the growing efforts to deport/ban illegal aliens (irrespective of race./ethnicity).

In fact: directly across the street from where I live I saw several obviously White people (whether Anglo or White Hispanic I could not tell but their English had no Spanish accent) doing yard work. So much for Americans not doing manual labor. Note this part of town has (had) quite a few Spanish speaking Mestizos till fairly recently.
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Old 02-09-2009, 08:00 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Now this is where I'm going to call you out... I've heard this sentence before (perhaps from you?), and can't see how it makes any sense. When have you seen racism from the "pro" side of this argument? I don't even know how that would be possible, since race only comes into play when speaking against immigration. Please explain.
The obvious racism of the "anti" side is self-evident. The "pro" side has the weight of SOME political correctness on its side...i.e.. one "can't" be a racist if one is "pro" anything that isn't identified as "white".

However, I disagree. In the past we've had many LONG threads going over this material at length. In my opinion, those who vociferously defend illegal immigrants at ALL costs....who make every effort to 'cloud the issue' and will not make "logical" statements, only emotional 'charges', and go to great lengths NOT to ever allow the discussion of any POSSIBLE negative effects of illegal immigration, refusing to join the discussion at that point, unless it's to charge "racism", are THEMSELVES racists. Such statements as "Crime by illegals is no different than crime by legal citizens"(yes it IS..because they shouldn't BE here committing crimes at ALL).or "illegals ONLY want to work"(wrong..some want to work..some want 'freebies'...some want to commit crimes) or "They ONLY do the work WE won't" (they only do the work WE won't because our wage scale has been depressed to the point we CAN'T)...contain such HUGE leaps of logic that one can ONLY conclude someone doesn't WANT to face reality...and it's MY opinion that this "avoidance" of unpleasant 'truths' is ONLY done for reasons of 'ethnicity'. I can't BELIEVE these folks would support Americans, if they were involved in similar situations...

It is my honest opinion that MUCH of the permissive attitude held toward illegals by MANY 'pros' (and I've heard MANY of them myself, IN PERSON) is based on the fact that "these are simple people...they're uneducated...their OWN country is a mess, and they can't HELP behaving the way they do" etc etc etc. This in ITSELF is racist..it may be "soft" racism, but its racism nonetheless.

The "racism of low expectations" is just as racist as any other. The illegals are seen as basically a "non-white" group, and thus 'benighted, simple, and incapable of behaving like Americans'. IIn essence, we're saying "they don't act any better, because they don't KNOW any better"..Do you HONESTLY feel (and you don't have to answer this) that we'd have the enormous outpouring of 'pro-illegal sympathy; if the illegals, instead of being percieved as 'colorful denizens of the Third World', were instead streaming in by the millions from Norway, or Holland, or Denmark? Of COURSE not....those people aren't "colorful" and if they acted illegally, we'd be MAD..because they OUGHT TO KNOW BETTER !! They're EUROPEANS and we expect them to ACT like it !!" If that's not 'racist', I'd like to hear what IS.

Not a subject that will make me many 'points', but I think many people see the truth in what I'm saying. My own spouse, as I said, is as "non-White" as any illegal, and she FAR prefers to deal with a genuine ignorant "red neck" racist (by ignoring him, or getting angry with him) than some condescending "do-gooder" who makes alowances for her because she "has every RIGHT to be upset, after what 'her people' have endured". NOBODY likes to be "pitied". It's demeaning, embarrassing, and it's nothing more than "soft racism".

I'll say it again...objection to illegal immigrants because of their RACE and their CULTURE is wrong, unkind, and racist. SUPPORTING illegal immigrants, overlooking their behavior, 'rationalizing' their colorful misbehavior, or making excuses for them, BECAUSE of their race or their culture is ALSO racist..it's just more dishonest. And I can't see any other rationale for SOME of the "pros" on here, except blatant, in-your-face ethnic preference. Some have even used the term 'they're my people', and certain big-city mayors includes HIMSELF with the illegals...he even claims that "WE clean your toilets". That's right, "they" (the mayor and the illegals) clean "our" (legal Americans') toilets. It may not be TRUE, but it speaks VOLUMES on the subject of ethnic 'preference' and back-handed racism.

I have no doubt in my mind at ALL that a number of "apologists" on this forum (not YOU, maybe) are in 'support' of illegals ONLY because of their 'downtrodden' culture, and because they 'can't HELP their illegal ways..and if tomorrow morning, we woke up to find that our 20 million illegals had suddenly turned into Swedes or Germans, THE PRO'S would DROP THEM like a HOT ROCK.

That, of course, cannot be proven; it will always be a matter of opinion. But one thing's for sure...those illegals are ALL here illegally, and I don't hear anybody "supporting" shoplifters, or speeding motorists, or tax cheats, or those who build room additions without permits, or those who fail to register their automobiles. Why? Possibly because THESE offenses have no "racial" component, and nobody wants to defend THEM, because they're just 'petty lawbreakers'.

Racism is racism. Whether you single someone out for 'harsh treatment' because of his race, OR whether you give him a 'pass', pity him, and hold him less accountable because of his race, it's STILL racism.

You can, of course, object to illegal immigration because you just plain "hate Hispanics". Some undoubtedly feel this way. But there's another group, as well...those who object to it because it's overwhelming our infrastructure, destroying our standard of living, wrecking our middle class, and filling our cities with angry, resentful outsiders, furious that they're unable to "get" what they've come to believe is "theirs". It's NOT theirs; it belongs to Americans, and to legal immigrants. And I can assure you that this last group is NOT racist, is NOT hateful, but is getting impatient and angry. And MANY of them aren't 'white', and a NUMBER of them I know personally share the ethnicity of the "illegals" themselves....they just don't share their sense of entitlement to what's not theirs, nor their utter disdain for our system of laws.

Last edited by macmeal; 02-09-2009 at 08:34 PM..
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
The obvious racism of the "anti" side is self-evident. The "pro" side has the weight of SOME political correctness on its side...i.e.. one "can't" be a racist if one is "pro" anything that isn't identified as "white".

However, I disagree. In the past we've had many LONG threads going over this material at length. In my opinion, those who vociferously defend illegal immigrants at ALL costs....who make every effort to 'cloud the issue' and will not make "logical" statements, only emotional 'charges', and go to great lengths NOT to ever allow the discussion of any POSSIBLE negative effects of illegal immigration, refusing to join the discussion at that point, unless it's to charge "racism", are THEMSELVES racists. Such statements as "Crime by illegals is no different than crime by legal citizens"(yes it IS..because they shouldn't BE here committing crimes at ALL).or "illegals ONLY want to work"(wrong..some want to work..some want 'freebies'...some want to commit crimes) or "They ONLY do the work WE won't" (they only do the work WE won't because our wage scale has been depressed to the point we CAN'T)...contain such HUGE leaps of logic that one can ONLY conclude someone doesn't WANT to face reality...and it's MY opinion that this "avoidance" of unpleasant 'truths' is ONLY done for reasons of 'ethnicity'. I can't BELIEVE these folks would support Americans, if they were involved in similar situations...

It is my honest opinion that MUCH of the permissive attitude held toward illegals by MANY 'pros' (and I've heard MANY of them myself, IN PERSON) is based on the fact that "these are simple people...they're uneducated...their OWN country is a mess, and they can't HELP behaving the way they do" etc etc etc. This in ITSELF is racist..it may be "soft" racism, but its racism nonetheless.

The "racism of low expectations" is just as racist as any other. The illegals are seen as basically a "non-white" group, and thus 'benighted, simple, and incapable of behaving like Americans'. IIn essence, we're saying "they don't act any better, because they don't KNOW any better"..Do you HONESTLY feel (and you don't have to answer this) that we'd have the enormous outpouring of 'pro-illegal sympathy; if the illegals, instead of being percieved as 'colorful denizens of the Third World', were instead streaming in by the millions from Norway, or Holland, or Denmark? Of COURSE not....those people aren't "colorful" and if they acted illegally, we'd be MAD..because they OUGHT TO KNOW BETTER !! They're EUROPEANS and we expect them to ACT like it !!" If that's not 'racist', I'd like to hear what IS.

Not a subject that will make me many 'points', but I think many people see the truth in what I'm saying. My own spouse, as I said, is as "non-White" as any illegal, and she FAR prefers to deal with a genuine ignorant "red neck" racist (by ignoring him, or getting angry with him) than some condescending "do-gooder" who makes alowances for her because she "has every RIGHT to be upset, after what 'her people' have endured". NOBODY likes to be "pitied". It's demeaning, embarrassing, and it's nothing more than "soft racism".

I'll say it again...objection to illegal immigrants because of their RACE and their CULTURE is wrong, unkind, and racist. SUPPORTING illegal immigrants, overlooking their behavior, 'rationalizing' their colorful misbehavior, or making excuses for them, BECAUSE of their race or their culture is ALSO racist..it's just more dishonest. And I can't see any other rationale for SOME of the "pros" on here, except blatant, in-your-face ethnic preference. Some have even used the term 'they're my people', and certain big-city mayors includes HIMSELF with the illegals...he even claims that "WE clean your toilets". That's right, "they" (the mayor and the illegals) clean "our" (legal Americans') toilets. It may not be TRUE, but it speaks VOLUMES on the subject of ethnic 'preference' and back-handed racism.

I have no doubt in my mind at ALL that a number of "apologists" on this forum (not YOU, maybe) are in 'support' of illegals ONLY because of their 'downtrodden' culture, and because they 'can't HELP their illegal ways..and if tomorrow morning, we woke up to find that our 20 million illegals had suddenly turned into Swedes or Germans, THE PRO'S would DROP THEM like a HOT ROCK.

That, of course, cannot be proven; it will always be a matter of opinion. But one thing's for sure...those illegals are ALL here illegally, and I don't hear anybody "supporting" shoplifters, or speeding motorists, or tax cheats, or those who build room additions without permits, or those who fail to register their automobiles. Why? Possibly because THESE offenses have no "racial" component, and nobody wants to defend THEM, because they're just 'petty lawbreakers'.

Racism is racism. Whether you single someone out for 'harsh treatment' because of his race, OR whether you give him a 'pass', pity him, and hold him less accountable because of his race, it's STILL racism.

You can, of course, object to illegal immigration because you just plain "hate Hispanics". Some undoubtedly feel this way. But there's another group, as well...those who object to it because it's overwhelming our infrastructure, destroying our standard of living, wrecking our middle class, and filling our cities with angry, resentful outsiders, furious that they're unable to "get" what they've come to believe is "theirs". It's NOT theirs; it belongs to Americans, and to legal immigrants. And I can assure you that this last group is NOT racist, is NOT hateful, but is getting impatient and angry. And MANY of them aren't 'white', and a NUMBER of them I know personally share the ethnicity of the "illegals" themselves....they just don't share their sense of entitlement to what's not theirs, nor their utter disdain for our system of laws.
It just doesn’t get any better than this! Absolute eloquence, as usual. There is no ‘logical’ rebuttal.
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:48 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,044,409 times
Reputation: 17688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
It just doesn’t get any better than this! Absolute eloquence, as usual. There is no ‘logical’ rebuttal.
Wish I could double rep ya. That was well put.
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:10 PM
 
Location: John & Ken-ville
13,692 posts, read 15,117,815 times
Reputation: 9491
A lot of the pro-illegal cheerleaders don't believe in having national borders period.

And it's not the fact that the illegal is here illegally, they just don't think that any "human" should be limited in their "migratory patterns" because of national borders - without regard to the fact that they erode the economic and cultural fabric of the nation they invade.

This is the only conclusion I can reach from reading this thread because the pro-illegals cannot come up with a valid reason for supporting unchecked illegal immigration.

I could be putting words in their mouths because none of them brought this point up.
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:12 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,791,262 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyGem View Post
A lot of the pro-illegal cheerleaders don't believe in having national borders period.

And it's not the fact that the illegal is here illegally, they just don't think that any "human" should be limited in their "migratory patterns" because of national borders - without regard to the fact that they erode the economic and cultural fabric of the nation they invade.

This is the only conclusion I can reach from reading this thread because the pro-illegals cannot come up with a valid reason for supporting unchecked illegal immigration.

I could be putting words in their mouths because none of them brought this point up.
What "pro-illegal" poster made an argument in favor of unchecked illegal immigration? Surely you can find me a quote.
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:18 PM
 
Location: John & Ken-ville
13,692 posts, read 15,117,815 times
Reputation: 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
What "pro-illegal" poster made an argument in favor of unchecked illegal immigration? Surely you can find me a quote.
That has been your mantra in every post I've ever read by you.
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:27 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,791,262 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyGem View Post
That has been your mantra in every post I've ever read by you.
Because most so called anti-illegals make that comment and can't prove it.

I have seen only one poster make that argument for unchecked illegal immigration on this board so far.
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:32 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyGem View Post
.

And it's not the fact that the illegal is here illegally, they just don't think that any "human" should be limited in their "migratory patterns" because of national borders - without regard to the fact that they erode the economic and cultural fabric of the nation they invade.

I could be putting words in their mouths because none of them brought this point up.
Actually, the Catholic Church, in its newspapers and editorials, comes pretty close to saying just exactly that...that human beings have the "right to freely migrate" in search of a better life.

As a Catholic myself, I HAVE to cringe when I read this. Obviously the Church is going to a say a LOT of things, basically coming out on the side of the "underdog" in most cases...(with a few NOTABLE exceptions in recent years, when OTHER underdogs got ignored).

Often, an editorial will appear reminding us that Christ cared for the poor (which of course, He did) and reminding us of our moral obligation to 'help'. At the end of a LONG editorial, sometimes a full page, the article will conclude that "of course, any nation DOES have the right to secure its borders, AND to enforce its laws".

So there you have it. The Church speaks on 'worldly' matters...which is fine, except its principles are rather general. The Pope, you'll recall. "leaned on" President Bush pretty heavily NOT to invade Iraq. Bush listened, then invaded anyway.

As a Catholic, it takes some effort to 'square' the generalized, all-purpose staterments from The Church, and the everyday reality I see around me.

But again, in conclusion, the Church in recent years has said pretty much word-for-word what you wrote...that "all God's people have the right to migrate in search of work". They don't get into specifics, and frankly, I don't blame them.
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:38 PM
 
Location: John & Ken-ville
13,692 posts, read 15,117,815 times
Reputation: 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
What "pro-illegal" poster made an argument in favor of unchecked illegal immigration? Surely you can find me a quote.
Here are some "gems" from you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
Undocumented immigrant is the proper term.
----------------------
Originally Posted by ProLogic
I have never claimed that I'm pro-illegal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
They call you pro-illegal but God forbid you call them label them as ant-immigrant.
------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by scootertrash61
only...ONLY....F#$%ING ONLY 30 ARE ILLEGAL!!!!! YOU'RE A REAL PIECE OF EH EH WORK DUDE

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
WOW, non citizen means they are not citizens . When did i ever say they were illegal?
------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by texanborn
This one is.......don't believe if, that's your problem not mine, tell her parents that....You are an illegal supporter and you think they are all good....I hope you never meet up with one of the many bad ones....

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
okay tell her parents what? Again there is nothing to prove that guy is illegal unless being born in mexico=being illegal.
------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Steve Bagu
Blacknight04: If I go to your house that has a fence all around your property. I climb over your fence and force my self into your house. What would you consider me.? A LEGAL ALIEN or a ILLEGAL ALIEN by my actions. Am I documented or Undocumented? I came from another country to the US as an ALIEN, yes, but as a DOCUMENTED Alien, not an UNDOCUMENTED ALIEN. Now with this DOCUMENTED position, I served in the US MILITARY in COMBAT in KOREA, all the time holding a GREEN CARD classifying me as LEGALLY DOCUMENTED ALIEN. TODAY there are an estimated 55,000 GREEN CARD holders serving in the US military. Within the last 45 days several GREEN CARD holders were sworn in as AMERICAN CITIZENS all in IRAQ. NOW do we understand the difference between DOCUMENTED an UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS??????. Stefhen

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
Okay i think i know the difference between an undocumented alien and an undocumented one. Btw, a country is not a house so that analogy doesn't make any sense.
--------------------------------------------------------

they only come here to work... ummm right! Mexican Mafia members in San Diego are brought to court.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
What does this have to do with the majority who come here to work?

============================================

Illegal Alien Apologist = Blacknight04




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