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Old 02-07-2009, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Australia
121 posts, read 208,796 times
Reputation: 166

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I’m not familiar with Australia’s immigration laws, or the circumstances involved in your amnesty. Tell me, did you have 20 million illegal aliens? Were their children automatically granted citizenship if born in Australia? If so, were they entitled to tax-funded medical care, K-12 education, welfare, and subsidized housing? Could a pregnant illegal alien receive tax-funded prenatal and postnatal care? Finally, did these workers earn enough wages to pay sufficient taxes to cover all of their social services?

The influx of Asian immigrates in the 70s and 80s provided a platform for many "anti-asian immigration" protests to be staged. It was socially incohesive and divisive. The sentiments expressed were not unlike that of this thread.

Admittedly, the first wave brought very little with them and the members of our society had to shoulder the burden in much the same context as what you've been experiencing. Whilst it wasn't 20 million "aliens", we were a young and growing country and we didn't need the added responsibility.

The story is quite different today. The off-springs of these immigrates have made good use of our goodwill and produced extraordinary results - adding to the richness of our social fabric (and to our medical industry).

Perhaps, you should consider this to be a long term investment for the overall well-being of your society.

Last edited by joeldew; 02-07-2009 at 07:37 PM..
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Australia
121 posts, read 208,796 times
Reputation: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
Gee, maybe you can extend that privilege to mexico and the rest of the world. I think I can safely speak for every hard working American tax payer in saying that we would be so grateful to be rid of every single: non-assimilating, whiney, demanding, needy, arrogant, rapist, child molesting, drug peddaling, gang banging, identity stealing, murdering, social service and tax draining illegal squatter in this country.

What? So those who call themselves "Amercian citizens" don't commit the same crimes?

What do you propose? DEPORT 20 million aliens? or provide proper mechanism to weed out those who don't deserved to be participants relative to those who deserved to be granted residency?
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,902,935 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Knight I really thought you would have posted some replies with substance. No aplphabet???
What a coincidence I end up on this thread to see my name mentioned.
Why are you calling me out when I've barely been visiting this loony forum in the last month?
I'm losing interest in going around in circles and wasting time on this thread as my life's been getting busier lately.

But an answer to Benicar's calling out of everyone, I haven't really "argued for illegal immigration".

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any people desperate enough to immigrate illegally. In a perfect world, it wouldn't be so easy to.

The argument for amnesty, is that if coupled with a humane plan to seal the border tighter, it could be a way to control the problem of having millions of people here who aren't in the system, as opposed to someone's delusional dream of deporting them all. To take millions of people out of the shadows so as to tax them, and find out who the criminals(ASIDE FROM BEING HERE ILLEGALLY) are and get rid of them.

Some people here are extremely dense, and can't shake the idea that amnesty isn't just to "reward" illegal aliens, but to control a problem OUR country is dealing with.

"Anti-illegals", or "rabid anti-illegals" aren't on the "wrong side" of the issue for being against illegal immigration.

They're on the wrong side of decency for smearing entire groups of people, fear-mongering, degrading countries and cultures, and basically encouraging hate of a people.
That's what makes me sick about some of you.

If I don't respond right away, please don't post something, and immediately say "crickets" or "a sign of desperation" or "they aren't responding because they can't argue the inarguable" or any of that other mumbo jumbo. It's just that many of you are petty, and the old whining, and repeating of catchphrases, and "dittos" and "ITAs" are getting stale and played out. Not to mention the not so rare anti-Mexican/Hispanic propaganda(do you guys ever get tired of denying it and trying to somehow justify it at the same time?).

I hope illegal immigration slows down. But with Hispanic illegal immigrants here or not, life goes on for me.
You guys will always be finding something to complain about for the rest of your lives.
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:47 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,086,580 times
Reputation: 822
Thanks JDubsMom. Yeah I agree with you on the anchor baby policy. It is illogical. For education reform, okay here are some numbers: UCSB Press Release: "California High School Dropouts Cost State $46.4 Billion Annually ", $46 billion for the state of California alone. Illegal immigrants are more likely dropout, as there is a high correlation between income and dropout rates (the poorer one is, the higher the correlation of dropping out). So, if we aim at reforming education to include more IB, AP, AVID, and vocational classes (to appeal to both the college and vocational tracks), then we can decrease the dropout rate. One study took a look at inner city schools with similar demographics, the school with more advanced classes, vocational classes, and teacher support did much better than the one not. (I read it in my urban sociology course, I forgot the name of it.) If there could also be "legalization courses" for kids then that would be helpful too (classes to obtain citizenship). It is not the fault of the kids, they had no choice in the matter. Think about it in terms of your growing up. Did any of you have a say in where you wanted to live when you were a child? Most likely not.

Look, our citizens are suffering for much of the same reasons as illegal immigrants. We live in a class based society. Most people remain within the class they were born into (the major exceptions being first generation high school and/or college graduates). We, as a nation, are harder on our less lucky counterparts than most industrialized nations. It is because of these tough economic times that we must educate the poor, illegal or legal. They both comprise a part of our economic picture. Deportation causes loss of a large economic market (10-12 million illegal immigrants is a HUGE number and results in billions upon billions of lost dollars), will be a drain to deport all 10-12 million (we don't need that now, it is not a priority. We need to focus on how to stimulate the economy. This won't help directly), and will result in more strained relations with the rest of the world (we need friends in this world, we are one of the most hated countries. This does not bode will if we have any other military measures we must take).

One main point I hear often against illegal immigration is the fact that they don't speak English and/or do not assimilate well into American culture. Public schools are perfect for both. This is part of the reason why public education was created in the United States. A standard form of American English was taught as well as common cultural ties.

So, supporting education for people within the borders of the United States is a win-win situation. It provides long term results (as education is the only way to better one's self economically). It also will introduce them to American culture and the English language.

As for guest worker programs, it must have three major components. First, it must be uniformly enforced. All businesses within the program must provide an accurate census sheet of workers. Fines/punishments must be enforced the same and with the same frequency. Secondly, it must not be exploitative. Workers must recieve a fair pay and work in a safe environment as outlined by federal, state, and local laws. Thirdly, those with their contract up must either renew, obtain a visa, become a citizen, or return home. Knowledge must be provided prior to termination of contract. Action must be taken during a grace period. If visa/citizenship is pending, then contract will overlay during the pending period. These are some very crude and simple guidlines. As for selection, first come first serve basis...maybe based on need...

Anything that enables more people to enter into the market and buy things. This is what America needs now, people to purchase things and not get into debt while purchasing. Any way to increase this goal is direly needed. To help pull Hispanics and others out of the lower classes (since again, they attend the same schools as poor Americans), will assist in our national recovery.
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:35 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,910,869 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeldew View Post
What? So those who call themselves "Amercian citizens" don't commit the same crimes?

What do you propose? DEPORT 20 million aliens? or provide proper mechanism to weed out those who don't deserved to be participants relative to those who deserved to be granted residency?
Please feel free to search every thread in this forum and locate the post where I stated that Americans do not commit crimes. Otherwise, you need to refrain from putting words in my mouth.

As for deportation of 20 million illegals? Again, if you go back and read my prior posts, you will realize that I am a huge advocate of enforcement of the laws already on the books, cutting off welfare, and all social services funded by my tax dollars. Attrition through enforcement will get rid of the majority of the illegal alien squatters in this country. The rest should be deported.

If they are here illegally, they certainly don't deserve any form of consideration that will allow them to become legal residents or citizens IMO.
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:44 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,126,408 times
Reputation: 14878
Personally, I don't have a hard rock formulated opinion on the subject but, I would have to wonder why anyone would waste their time answering the challenge when it would be such an utter waste of time.

"Címon, convince us antiís why we are on the wrong side of this issue."

What would be the point.
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,265 posts, read 43,579,140 times
Reputation: 18800
Fine, I'll bite - although it looks like you've had a few pages of responses already. But for the record, you're only getting silence because most of us are smart enough to avoid this forum... it's dominated by a certain type, and anyone who even thinks of being "apologetic" or sympathetic is jumped on like a rabid dog. To answer your question, I have a few good reasons:

1. They are human, and I believe all decent humans deserve to be treated as such. And no, I don't consider them criminals for coming here illegally - desperate times call for desperate measures, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few people here had ancestors who "hid on the boat."
2. Borders are an arbitrary thing anyway, and I don't believe in punishing somebody for being born on the wrong side of one.
3. Conditions in the countries they leave are obviously deplorable, or they wouldn't risk everything to come here illegally.
4. We are supposed to be a prosperous nation (at least until recent years), which was founded by immigrants for the purpose of being somewhat of a save haven.
5. Most "anti-illegals" I have encountered are just covering their racism and disdain for Latino people, and I'm inclined to take the opposite stance from people like that.
6. Immigrants will still come here illegally, whether you like it or not... so I believe it's more beneficial to take useful actions, than to keep sending them back. Most illegal residents I have met work VERY hard, get paid next to nothing, and don't receive any benefits. Why not give them legitimate jobs with fair wages, and have them pay taxes like the rest of us? Not to mention healthcare, which would behoove us to provide for anyone living in this country.

I can't really argue the financial side or politics in-depth, since this isn't a subject I spend time researching or studying. But if we can hand over like 80% of call-center jobs to India, we obviously still have jobs to spare... either that, or the powers-that-be in the country are so incompetent, it's no surprise we are in such dire straits right now. Okay, are those enough reasons? I'm not expecting to argue these points, since they are simply from my heart - and nobody can debate somebody's heart, can they?? Well, I guess that is possible on City-Data, LOL.

Last edited by gizmo980; 02-07-2009 at 08:57 PM..
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:49 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,910,869 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Personally, I don't have a hard rock formulated opinion on the subject but, I would have to wonder why anyone would waste their time answering the challenge when it would be such an utter waste of time.

"C’mon, convince us anti’s why we are on the wrong side of this issue."

What would be the point.
The point would be for the illegal aliens and supporters of their cause that frequent this board to give at least ONE legitimate reason as to why those of us AMERICANS who are against illegal immigration or another amnesty are wrong. Or simply put why we should Americans should aid and abet them in the destruction of what's left of our country.
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:52 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,926 posts, read 30,173,166 times
Reputation: 17747
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeldew View Post
What? So those who call themselves "Amercian citizens" don't commit the same crimes?

What do you propose? DEPORT 20 million aliens? or provide proper mechanism to weed out those who don't deserved to be participants relative to those who deserved to be granted residency?
First off, when the whole lot came here by breaking laws I have a hard time rewarding them with anything more than a goodbye and a wave. Eisenhower has already proven you can get people to mass deport with the fear of being deported or leaving voluntarily.

It's very easy to spend someone elses money. That pretty much sums it up. The taxpayers are sick of it.

We do need a labor force. Right now the American unemployed number sits at 11 million. Well, with 20 million Illegal Aliens surviving here by either working or living off of Social Services I believe I'd like to reserve both of those items for my fellow AMERICANS. The Illegals can fight over the remainder.
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,265 posts, read 43,579,140 times
Reputation: 18800
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
Sorry Benicar but I'm with 1Angry on this one.

I have a feeling we could all check back in a week and we'd still be the only posters in this thread.
Was that a bet? If so, I'll take some of the payoff on that...

Like I said, the responses weren't slow because nobody could answer - it was simply because nobody checks this forum except the "antis." I only popped in because the thread title was on new posts, and caught my attention... otherwise it's very rare that I come in here.
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