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Old 02-07-2009, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,890,891 times
Reputation: 6517

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
First off, when the whole lot came here by breaking laws I have a hard time rewarding them with anything more than a goodbye and a wave. Eisenhower has already proven you can get people to mass deport with the fear of being deported or leaving voluntarily.

It's very easy to spend someone elses money. That pretty much sums it up. The taxpayers are sick of it.

We do need a labor force. Right now the American unemployed number sits at 11 million. Well, with 20 million Illegal Aliens surviving here by either working or living off of Social Services I believe I'd like to reserve both of those items for my fellow AMERICANS. The Illegals can fight over the remainder.
Excellent post...
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:03 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,813 posts, read 30,061,070 times
Reputation: 17697
I'm ok with being in the majority. Quite ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Was that a bet? If so, I'll take some of the payoff on that...

Like I said, the responses weren't slow because nobody could answer - it was simply because nobody checks this forum except the "antis." I only popped in because the thread title was on new posts, and caught my attention... otherwise it's very rare that I come in here.
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,633,862 times
Reputation: 3785
For the record: I am extremely prejudiced against illegal aliens-----------irrespective of actual race/ethnicity.

Read that I would at disdain and contempt upon a Nordic White Swede if here illegally and I am Nordic White myself.

Flip side: a family of chocolate brown color Mayan Indians from Mexico/Guatemala who come here legally I would welcome to my country
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:01 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Fine, I'll bite - although it looks like you've had a few pages of responses already. But for the record, you're only getting silence because most of us are smart enough to avoid this forum... it's dominated by a certain type, and anyone who even thinks of being "apologetic" or sympathetic is jumped on like a rabid dog. To answer your question, I have a few good reasons:

1. They are human, and I believe all decent humans deserve to be treated as such. And no, I don't consider them criminals for coming here illegally - desperate times call for desperate measures, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few people here had ancestors who "hid on the boat."
2. Borders are an arbitrary thing anyway, and I don't believe in punishing somebody for being born on the wrong side of one.
3. Conditions in the countries they leave are obviously deplorable, or they wouldn't risk everything to come here illegally.
4. We are supposed to be a prosperous nation (at least until recent years), which was founded by immigrants for the purpose of being somewhat of a save haven.
5. Most "anti-illegals" I have encountered are just covering their racism and disdain for Latino people, and I'm inclined to take the opposite stance from people like that.
6. Immigrants will still come here illegally, whether you like it or not... so I believe it's more beneficial to take useful actions, than to keep sending them back. Most illegal residents I have met work VERY hard, get paid next to nothing, and don't receive any benefits. Why not give them legitimate jobs with fair wages, and have them pay taxes like the rest of us? Not to mention healthcare, which would behoove us to provide for anyone living in this country.

I can't really argue the financial side or politics in-depth, since this isn't a subject I spend time researching or studying. But if we can hand over like 80% of call-center jobs to India, we obviously still have jobs to spare... either that, or the powers-that-be in the country are so incompetent, it's no surprise we are in such dire straits right now. Okay, are those enough reasons? I'm not expecting to argue these points, since they are simply from my heart - and nobody can debate somebody's heart, can they?? Well, I guess that is possible on City-Data, LOL.
Gizmo, you sound like a decent guy..I'll take a chance here. MOST people on this thread don't 'go' for your points, because, essentially, they're the same points I made back on page two. I made them in 'jest'..you're saying them with a 'straight face'.

The reason people are 'weary' of this is because all your "good" reasons are reasons that have been TRIED before....and MOSTLY they've succeeded only in firing up the demand for MORE illegals. Some of what you say sounds vaguely threatening.."they'll come anyway"...and you think that will put people on their SIDE?.."let me in, or I'll come in ANYWAY?". You think shipping our jobs overseas ('call-center jobs') is evidence that "we have enough jobs that we can 'spare a few' "?...what an insult..Think of that point, for a moment, from the standpoint of an American worker. "You just got laid off....but don't worry..there are so many jobs out there, we're bringing in illegals, AND offshoring! BOTH !!...." If it wasn't so insulting, it would sound like a Jay Leno gag.

Speaking of insults, none of this has happened in a vacuum. We've had several amnesties in the past. ONE of them, in 1986, benefitted no less than THREE MILLION people. EACH amnesty was going to 'settle the problem' and 'put it to rest'....and each time was going to be the LAST time.

I won't go on....I'm as tired of this as you are. Racists? Sure there are some. And they're very much a part of BOTH sides of this ridiculous controversy. They annoy me as well..(they wouldn't like MY family much, I guarantee you)..but this goes WAY beyond name-calling. This is a travesty...not a few thousand 'special needs' people...not a million 'refugees from tyranny'....we're talking about some TWENTY MILLION people here..every single ONE of them demanding "his" PIECE of the ACTION...and with NO END IN SIGHT.

Remember, all those 'humane' points you made, have been made repeatedly, long before..every ONE of them. And we HAD an amnesty...and then another..etc etc.etc.
And today, what do we have? 20 million people "mad as hell" that we don't have still ANOTHER amnesty....for THEM. And THAT will be the 'last one, too..at least until the 'newly legalized' decide they don't WANT to work for 'cr*p wages' anymore, and their employers replace THEM with NEW illegals (remember, these employers can't AFFORD legal workers..right?). So then today's illegals become the NEWEST legals, and are soon replaced by NEW illegals. Getting 'dizzy' here? So am I...MAD, too.

I'll shut up now....I ONLY responded to you because you sound like a "nice guy", and I think I am too. I'm not a racist...(my wife is pretty much identical in race with the 'stereotypical' illegal, if not in citizenship)..I'm not even MEAN...I'm just tired of the "BS". SOOOO weary of the racist "hype", coming from all directions.

Excuse my outburst. Again, you sound like a nice guy..and thanks for listening.

Last edited by macmeal; 02-07-2009 at 10:12 PM..
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,191 posts, read 43,477,322 times
Reputation: 18621
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Gizmo, you sound like a decent guy..I'll take a chance here. MOST people on this thread don't 'go' for your points, because, essentially, they're the same points I made back on page two. I made them in 'jest'..you're saying them with a 'straight face'.
Thanks, macmeal. And while I appreciate the compliments, it would be more appropriate to call me a nice GIRL... darned unisex screen-name, LOL. Like I said, these answers were simply from my heart, and I'm sure you could easily debate most of them. But regardless of what attempts have failed in the past, I never believe in giving up on humanity. Call me naive, but I try to follow two principles in life - the Golden Rule and karma/fate. So if you treat others well, the benefits should eventually come back twofold.

Quote:
Some of what you say sounds vaguely threatening.."they'll come anyway"...and you think that will put people on their SIDE?.."let me in, or I'll come in ANYWAY?".
I didn't mean it to sound threatening, but I was stating the truth... illegal immigration has always and will always happen, even in other countries. Therefore my feeling is that we should address the bigger problems (from the inside & on both ends), rather than mindlessly "shipping them back." Even if those who are deported don't return, others will in their place - just a fact, nothing more.

Quote:
You think shipping our jobs overseas ('call-center jobs') is evidence that "we have enough jobs that we can 'spare a few' "?...what an insult..Think of that point, for a moment, from the standpoint of an American worker. "You just got laid off....but don't worry..there are so many jobs out there, we're bringing in illegals, AND offshoring! BOTH !!...." If it wasn't so insulting, it would sound like a Jay Leno gag.
Whoa buddy... I think you misunderstood me! I wasn't saying we should ship jobs overseas and give them to illegal immigrants, rather than to citizens. Lord no. I was saying that if we're willing to send so many jobs overseas, why can't we bring some of those BACK? I'm not against outsourcing, but even this ultra-liberal is thinking enough already, especially considering our unemployment rates. I think at least some of these jobs should come back home, whether they go to natural-born citizens, legal immigrants, or whatever. Just bringing that money and work into the US would solve a few problems, IMHO. I'm mostly talking out of my arse, though, so I'm sure there are some flaws with this concept.
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,191 posts, read 43,477,322 times
Reputation: 18621
P.S. For the record, I would never call myself a "PRO-illegal" or anything... I'm just not ANTI-illegal immigration, because it doesn't jive with the beliefs I stated earlier. As a long-time Californian, obviously I have seen the negative aspects of illegal immigration - but I've also seen the positive things they contribute, and have known enough on a personal level to be incapable of hating them.
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:55 AM
 
9 posts, read 14,409 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Personally, I don't have a hard rock formulated opinion on the subject but, I would have to wonder why anyone would waste their time answering the challenge when it would be such an utter waste of time.

"Címon, convince us antiís why we are on the wrong side of this issue."

What would be the point.
Its pretty much a dead case. No words will enter their ears but I will give it a try.

I am in support of an amnesty. I am not one to say New Mexico, Texas, California, Arizona all belong to Mexico or that we want to take over the states. Most illegal immigrants want to be part of this great country.

I believe there is a lot of hypocracy from both sides.

The American wants to pay for cheap labor, he asks one of his already illegal employees to find another person to work for him so he can pay cheap labor. The illegal calls his brother, cousin or whatever to come to this country. He crosses illegaly because he knew he was braking the law and because he was invited. Works below minimum wage using a fake number that was photocopied by a secretary, who was told to not verify the documents and who can tell the documents are fake but still keeps quiet so she can keep her job and her boss can keep running his business. Taxes are withdrawn from that fake number that go to fund a number of local government, state and fed. programs and agencies. The worker never claims that money during tax time because he knows he cant or he will get discovered. INS do their job to send notices to these businesses but they wash their hands knowing that without the cheap labor, many business would not only get fined but stop their existence and hurt the economy. These letters arrive to the businesses but get ignored by orders of the boss who know by curiosity finally wants to know who is illegal and who is not. He finds out that most if not all use a SS# that does not belong to anyone and that is "made up". The illegal immigrant after years working illegally decides to have a family. Natural part of life right? Feels he does not need to learn english because every sign at the window in his local community says "Se habla espanol". Now you see commercials that say "if you are illegal, you can still buy a home." INS decides to ignore certain areas that are sanctuaries to immigrants because there are shops for painters, shops for construction, agriculture, ganitorial and the list goes on. All these businesses are based in these sactuaries that INS will not touch. While all this happens, the border is still open, more immigrants are invited. Now the illegal immigrants have children in their teens, family members might have died in Mexico but have made a sacrifice to stay in this country and see that his children have a better life. The marches, the protests, the anti-immigrant, hate and now he is in jail, deported, separated from his children who become part of the system. How inhumane is that!

So here you are crying because they broke the law. Did you close your borders? Did you do everything you can to enforce the laws in place? Did you punish those that employeed illegal immigrants? Did you punish those that offered them loans to buy a home? Did you say no more spanish? For many years it was okay for illegals to break the law. Now America woke up! Close your borders first! Enforce your laws but give these people whom you (directly or indirectly) invited and used to fill jobs for cheap pay. Do not complain against the immigrants, complain against your government who closed one eye and with the other gave direction to allow this to happen. CLOSE YOUR BORDERS. BTW, they will still find ways to come but we can enforce our laws. When you make them legal residents, they will contribute even more. You can keep track of them and kick out those that commit felonies.

When you do false advertisement, you need to hold those accountable for it.
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Old 02-08-2009, 03:32 AM
 
Location: Doonan, QLD
103 posts, read 162,442 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeldew View Post
I agree completely.

In the 80s, Australian businesses were crippled with the lack of human resources. Our immigration laws had to be relaxed to ensure that labour was more accessible so that the economy can prosper; labour was therefore mobilised from predominantly our trading partners - Asia. Hence, the influx of Asian immigrates to Australia

Admittedly, some of the work were not exactly well-paid and it certainly didn't required a higher level of education and/or training; it was just work that had to be done but the local labour force was just not willing to supply

Despite our best intention, there were many who didn't entered the country the "legal" way. These people found employment, take up residency and eventually found their place in our society. In many ways, some of these people contributed more to our economy and way-of-life than the local citizens. As such, it was decided that we would NOT deport them and they were granted residency status.

Even today, despite the ailing economy and the high unemployment rate, we are still extending special visas to those who can assist our farmers. The local labour force is just NOT willing to pick "fruits and vegetables".

No one is arguing that entering the US illegally is a crime. Indeed, it is a crime. However, perhaps you may consider extending residency status to those who have already contributed something to your society. After all, I am absolutely certain that not all who claims to be "Amercian citizen" deserved to be a citizen.
Joeldew – we are comparing apples and oranges here.

I too am in AU, but legally immigrated to U.S. in the 1970’s as a child, am a U.S. and N.Z. citizen, then came to AU a year ago after living mostly in the Southern States (CA, TX, FL) as an Emergency Physician.

The scope of the problem in the U.S. is vastly different than the Asian immigration issues in AU; but also, the nature of the immigrants is also different. Most of the Asian immigrants did take whatever work they could, initially, but have been incredibly upwardly mobile both personally and with their children.

I believe that your impression of the situation would be vastly different if suddenly AU absorbed 1.5 million folks from Papua and New Guinea (this would be the pro-rated equivalent).

I’m of course a bit jaded; but I experienced a lot of contact with these immigrants who often spoke very little English, didn’t attempt to assimilate, took a lot of public services, and at least what I experienced, seemed to be having very large families at a very young age, before there was the potential for an education or any likelihood that they would contribute to society’s improvement nor raise children who would be likely to do so. Of course we can always look to exceptions, but the average situation is what makes the impact on a society.

Last edited by BigDaddyG; 02-08-2009 at 04:22 AM..
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:44 AM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,900,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Was that a bet? If so, I'll take some of the payoff on that...
No, it wasn't a bet. It was a comment to Benicar pertaining to the usual IA huggers on this forum.

Last edited by JDubsMom; 02-08-2009 at 05:53 AM..
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:07 AM
 
Location: Australia
121 posts, read 208,433 times
Reputation: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyG View Post
Joeldew Ė we are comparing apples and oranges here.

I too am in AU, but legally immigrated to U.S. in the 1970ís as a child, am a U.S. and N.Z. citizen, then came to AU a year ago after living mostly in the Southern States (CA, TX, FL) as an Emergency Physician.

The scope of the problem in the U.S. is vastly different than the Asian immigration issues in AU; but also, the nature of the immigrants is also different. Most of the Asian immigrants did take whatever work they could, initially, but have been incredibly upwardly mobile both personally and with their children.

I believe that your impression of the situation would be vastly different if suddenly AU absorbed 1.5 million folks from Papua and New Guinea (this would be the pro-rated equivalent).

Iím of course a bit jaded; but I experienced a lot of contact with these immigrants who often spoke very little English, didnít attempt to assimilate, took a lot of public services, and at least what I experienced, seemed to be having very large families at a very young age, before there was the potential for an education or any likelihood that they would contribute to societyís improvement nor raise children who would be likely to do so. Of course we can always look to exceptions, but the average situation is what makes the impact on a society.
G'day BigDaddyG,

In some respects, I might have been comparing apples with oranges but the subtext is very similar - society's perception and treatment of immigrants (illegal or legal)

I mentioned in another thread that the first wave will experience the harshest treatment by society. It's not until the second or the third wave does the harshness gets somewhat diluted.

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that their children will grow up to be fine pillars of society
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