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Old 02-08-2009, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,678,111 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
You really need to calm down, what happened to the put emotions aside and discuss this issue?

Every single poster who has expressed a different opinion in this thread has been attacked by the so called "anti-illegals". That is why i still can't understand why you even started this thread. I suggest the mods close this thread because it is not going anywhere.

Did you forget to read that part of her post before you decided to go on your self-righteous rant?

Btw, what does being black have to do with any of what she said?
Give use one good reason why we (the USA) should amnesty illegal aliens----------especially factoring in the imploding economy (which eliminates the 'low cost labor' excuse).
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Old 02-08-2009, 02:57 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,799,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Give use one good reason why we (the USA) should amnesty illegal aliens----------especially factoring in the imploding economy (which eliminates the 'low cost labor' excuse).
Haven't other posters given some good reasons already? Regardless, i don't need to give or justify anything to the SO CALLED "anti-illegal" crowd. Contrary to what you might believe, you don't speak for all americans and you sure as hell don't speak for this american.

Next...
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Old 02-08-2009, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,678,111 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
Haven't other posters given some good reasons already? Regardless, i don't need to give or justify anything to the SO CALLED "anti-illegal" crowd. Contrary to what you might believe, you don't speak for all americans and you sure as hell don't speak for this american.

Next...
You just answered my question...............talked a lot and said nothing.

Thank you.
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:46 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,910,869 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
Haven't other posters given some good reasons already? Regardless, i don't need to give or justify anything to the SO CALLED "anti-illegal" crowd. Contrary to what you might believe, you don't speak for all americans and you sure as hell don't speak for this american.

Next...
Actually none of you have responded with legitimate facts, reasons or links to justify illegal entry into the US. Thus, the intelligent, articulate and well thought out post courtesy of Benicar. Day in and day out we provide legitimate reasons with links to support our stance against illegal immigration. Now we would like to hear just one legitimate justification from the illegal alien/supporter perspective that justifies the illegal invasion of this country.

Whether you accept it or not, when it comes to this illegal alien invasion, the crime wave associated with it and it's contribution to the collapse of our country, we do indeed speak for and represent the feelings and opinion of the majority of Americans.
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:49 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,718,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itzel View Post
Its pretty much a dead case. No words will enter their ears but I will give it a try.

I am in support of an amnesty. I am not one to say New Mexico, Texas, California, Arizona all belong to Mexico or that we want to take over the states. Most illegal immigrants want to be part of this great country.

I believe there is a lot of hypocracy from both sides.

The American wants to pay for cheap labor, he asks one of his already illegal employees to find another person to work for him so he can pay cheap labor. The illegal calls his brother, cousin or whatever to come to this country. He crosses illegaly because he knew he was braking the law and because he was invited. Works below minimum wage using a fake number that was photocopied by a secretary, who was told to not verify the documents and who can tell the documents are fake but still keeps quiet so she can keep her job and her boss can keep running his business. Taxes are withdrawn from that fake number that go to fund a number of local government, state and fed. programs and agencies. The worker never claims that money during tax time because he knows he cant or he will get discovered. INS do their job to send notices to these businesses but they wash their hands knowing that without the cheap labor, many business would not only get fined but stop their existence and hurt the economy. These letters arrive to the businesses but get ignored by orders of the boss who know by curiosity finally wants to know who is illegal and who is not. He finds out that most if not all use a SS# that does not belong to anyone and that is "made up". The illegal immigrant after years working illegally decides to have a family. Natural part of life right? Feels he does not need to learn english because every sign at the window in his local community says "Se habla espanol". Now you see commercials that say "if you are illegal, you can still buy a home." INS decides to ignore certain areas that are sanctuaries to immigrants because there are shops for painters, shops for construction, agriculture, ganitorial and the list goes on. All these businesses are based in these sactuaries that INS will not touch. While all this happens, the border is still open, more immigrants are invited. Now the illegal immigrants have children in their teens, family members might have died in Mexico but have made a sacrifice to stay in this country and see that his children have a better life. The marches, the protests, the anti-immigrant, hate and now he is in jail, deported, separated from his children who become part of the system. How inhumane is that!

So here you are crying because they broke the law. Did you close your borders? Did you do everything you can to enforce the laws in place? Did you punish those that employeed illegal immigrants? Did you punish those that offered them loans to buy a home? Did you say no more spanish? For many years it was okay for illegals to break the law. Now America woke up! Close your borders first! Enforce your laws but give these people whom you (directly or indirectly) invited and used to fill jobs for cheap pay. Do not complain against the immigrants, complain against your government who closed one eye and with the other gave direction to allow this to happen. CLOSE YOUR BORDERS. BTW, they will still find ways to come but we can enforce our laws. When you make them legal residents, they will contribute even more. You can keep track of them and kick out those that commit felonies.

When you do false advertisement, you need to hold those accountable for it.
Who are 'we'? Who are you talking about?

This is basically the defense of the kid who gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar- YOU should not have left the jar where he could see it and be tempted by all the delicious cookies inside, YOU should have placed it up high where he could possibly reach it, if YOU would serve dinner at 3PM instead of 5 PM he would not be hungry and be forced to eat the cookies, etc., etc., etc.

If you walk by a store that has just been robbed and the display window is smashed and the door is wide open, would you go in and help yourself to a new set of clothes? Why not? By leaving the door open and the window smashed, aren't the owners of the store 'inviting' you to come on in and help yourself? Furthermore, if the store owners did not display all the latest fashions in their windows and attract so many customers, the robbers would not be tempted to hold up the place! Since the door was open and no one stopped you, shouldn't you now be the legal owner of the set of clothes?

This is nonsense. No matter how you spin it or what excuses you come up with, the fact of the matter is that they knowingly violated US immigration law and they are here illegally. They need to return to their home countries instead of squatting in the US.
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:00 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,635,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Who are 'we'? Who are you talking about?

This is basically the defense of the kid who gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar- YOU should not have left the jar where he could see it and be tempted by all the delicious cookies inside, YOU should have placed it up high where he could possibly reach it, if YOU would serve dinner at 3PM instead of 5 PM he would not be hungry and be forced to eat the cookies, etc., etc., etc.

If you walk by a store that has just been robbed and the display window is smashed and the door is wide open, would you go in and help yourself to a new set of clothes? Why not? By leaving the door open and the window smashed, aren't the owners of the store 'inviting' you to come on in and help yourself? Furthermore, if the store owners did not display all the latest fashions in their windows and attract so many customers, the robbers would not be tempted to hold up the place! Since the door was open and no one stopped you, shouldn't you now be the legal owner of the set of clothes?

This is nonsense. The one thing you cannot change about the illegal aliens is that they knowingly violated US immigration law and they are here illegally. They simply need to be repatriated to their home countries.
I think what you're referring to here under California Law is the principle of "Attractive Nuisance"...i.e.. if you build a swimming pool, or anything of the sort, you're legally obligated to go to great effort to fence it, because common sense tells us it will "attract" passing kiddies...their safety becomes your legal responsibility.

Does it work with countries? I don't know...maybe so. "I came here because you built an attractive country. You should have KNOWN I'd sneak in; the fact that I DID so is your fault, because you LET me. You SHOULD have had razor-wire barricades and minefields installed; THEN I'd have taken you seriously. As it IS, how do you expect me to have any respect at ALL for a country that's so easy to sneak into? If you guys had ANY self-respect, I'd have never been allowed IN"...or something like that.

Folks come in here because we "let" them. Can't STOP them ,though, because that would be unkind. No one SUPPORTS illegal immigration; we just shoot down any effort to contain it.

Incredible...and we wonder why people hate lawyers. Attractive nuisance indeed.
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:13 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,718,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I think what you're referring to here under California Law is the principle of "Attractive Nuisance"...i.e.. if you build a swimming pool, or anything of the sort, you're legally obligated to go to great effort to fence it, because common sense tells us it will "attract" passing kiddies...their safety becomes your legal responsibility.

Does it work with countries? I don't know...maybe so. "I came here because you built an attractive country. You should have KNOWN I'd sneak in; the fact that I DID so is your fault, because you LET me. You SHOULD have had razor-wire barricades and minefields installed; THEN I'd have taken you seriously. As it IS, how do you expect me to have any respect at ALL for a country that's so easy to sneak into? If you guys had ANY self-respect, I'd have never been allowed IN"...or something like that.

Folks come in here because we "let" them. Can't STOP them ,though, because that would be unkind. No one SUPPORTS illegal immigration; we just shoot down any effort to contain it.

Incredible...and we wonder why people hate lawyers. Attractive nuisance indeed.
The 'Attractive Nuisance' law is aimed (I assume) at young children and teens, neither of whom is known for their great impulse control. I don't think the law would be applicable if a 35 year old sneaked into the pool for a swim and was harmed. Although in CA maybe it would. Most adults are deemed to have sufficient impulse control that even though it is a hot day and a dip in a pool would really feel good, they recognize that you do not swim in your neighbor's pool without their permission. So instead they will wait for the neighbor to get home then ask if they can use the pool if they bring over a six pack of beer. It would not occur to them to climb the fence and jump in. Our culture teaches us that you respect other's property and do not go into their yard without permission.

Our society is based on the concept that you obey the rules and laws- even when someone is not looking. If you put 50 cents into the newspaper box, what is to prevent you from taking 10 papers instead of 1 when you open the door? Well, nothing really, but the vast majority of us will take the one paper we have paid for and close the door. Why stop at a red light if nobody else is around? Most everybody sits there and waits for the light to change even if no other car is in sight. Why not cut to the front of the line at the movie theater? Or steal ripe tomatoes from your neighbor's garden? After all, he has planted them right where you can see them. How can he expect you not to go over and pick a few?

When the illegal aliens and their enablers start in with the excuses and explanations, 'you invited me here, no one stopped me from crossing the border, the gringo stole our land, you would do the same thing, etc., etc'. then basically what they are saying is that the US is the 'Attractive Nuisance" and that they lack the impulse control to stay out. So we are forced to take measures to keep them out, just like the homeowner with a pool who is forced to put up a fence.
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Old 02-08-2009, 10:20 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,635,197 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
The 'Attractive Nuisance' law is aimed (I assume) at young children and teens, neither of whom is known for their great impulse control. I don't think the law would be applicable if a 35 year old sneaked into the pool for a swim and was harmed. Although in CA maybe it would. Most adults are deemed to have sufficient impulse control that even though it is a hot day and a dip in a pool would really feel good, they recognize that you do not swim in your neighbor's pool without their permission. So instead they will wait for the neighbor to get home then ask if they can use the pool if they bring over a six pack of beer. It would not occur to them to climb the fence and jump in. Our culture teaches us that you respect other's property and do not go into their yard without permission.

Our society is based on the concept that you obey the rules and laws- even when someone is not looking. If you put 50 cents into the newspaper box, what is to prevent you from taking 10 papers instead of 1 when you open the door? Well, nothing really, but the vast majority of us will take the one paper we have paid for and close the door. Why stop at a red light if nobody else is around? Most everybody sits there and waits for the light to change even if no other car is in sight. Why not cut to the front of the line at the movie theater? Or steal ripe tomatoes from your neighbor's garden? After all, he has planted them right where you can see them. How can he expect you not to go over and pick a few?

When the illegal aliens and their enablers start in with the excuses and explanations, 'you invited me here, no one stopped me from crossing the border, the gringo stole our land, you would do the same thing, etc., etc'. then basically what they are saying is that the US is the 'Attractive Nuisance" and that they lack the impulse control to stay out. So we are forced to take measures to keep them out, just like the homeowner with a pool who is forced to put up a fence.
Good fun here...but you DID make me remember something. A Mexican author and social commentator (can't recall his name just now) describing the differences in the two countries, DID use one of your points..he called the U.S. "a land where people stop for stop signs, EVEN when NO ONE is LOOKING". It was looked at as a sort of 'quirk' in our culture, and from the Mexican standpoint, seemed just SILLY. If no one is looking, why stop?

Tiny point, but goes FAR in explaining our failure to "connect" with some of our new "guests"...(who ARE our guests, because we didn't PERSONALLY tell them NOT to come)...
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Cali
3,887 posts, read 6,009,381 times
Reputation: 2201
All I know is that California is 42 billion in the red largely because of the strain illegals have put on the social services.
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Old 02-09-2009, 12:46 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,265 posts, read 43,579,140 times
Reputation: 18800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
And what “certain type” might that be?
The type who claims this issue isn't race-related, and then goes on to make disparaging comments about Mexicans... I admittedly haven't been on here much in recent times, but when this forum started it was dominated by that type. I never claimed you're all racists, just that many are afraid to contribute because of these underlying themes.

Quote:
Obviously, it’s ok for posters on other forums to “jump on” those they disagree with; but when it’s done here, we’re “rabid.”
I said you jumped on "sympathizers" like THEY were a rabid dog - never called you rabid, LOL. And yes, it does happen more on this forum than others, since there is somewhat of a mob mentality here.

As for the rest of your post, while it was well-written, I can't say much of it actually related to me... you took my words completely wrong, so it's hard for me to respond to issues and emotions I never brought up. Sorry if you thought I was "demonizing" or being condescending, but I was simply answering the questions presented. I'm also sorry nobody here can accept the reasons given (in response to the OP), but I have a feeling NO answer would be sufficient.
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