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This is a great idea for a thread. I look forward to seeing the responses.
Some antis have expressed that illegal immigration has something to do with culture, and that Americans would never immigrate illegally.
I think it would take A LOT for Americans to start emigrating in large numbers. This country is so big, people would rather move to another area rather than leave the country.
I don't think Ill see it in my lifetime.
This is a great idea for a thread. I look forward to seeing the responses.
Some antis have expressed that illegal immigration has something to do with culture, and that Americans would never immigrate illegally.
I think it would take A LOT for Americans to start emigrating in large numbers. This country is so big, people would rather move to another area rather than leave the country.
I don't think Ill see it in my lifetime.
OK, I'll "bite". I agree with your post, but I'll also be your first 'example'. I don't think Americans, as our present-day culture stands, would be "comfortable" emigrating illegally in large numbers into ANY foreign country, and then loudly agitating for their (non-existant) "rights", and demanding concessions. That, I can state with certainty.
The 'catch' here lies with 'what if'. If America one day deteriorated into Third-World conditions, social upheaval, and dire, widespread poverty; if the American 'system' turned against the 'little people' to the point they no longer felt they had control over their own lives; if, in other words, America 'collapsed' as a society...THEN, I can envision Americans heading out for 'who knows where', and 'to hell with anyone who gets in my way'. That IS possible, and COULD happen, if things deteriorated enough.
But at this point...today? No, Americans aren't going to do those things. And in the unlikely event that large numbers of Americans ever ended up living 'outside the system' in some other country, I believe they'd 'reach out' and try to WORK WITH the 'host country', rather than beligerently "demanding" things from them, "or else". I believe the American culture would cause people to be ASHAMED to behave that way, and their pride (if any remained) would prevent their 'whining' about their plight. THat's my guess, at least.
So there...your answer to the post. Let me ask you this, "aa"...IF we allowed ourselves to imagine such a scenario, where exactly do you envision Americans GOING..illegally or not? Who, in your opinion, would be willing to 'take us in'?
Just asking...interesting speculation, in any case,
This is a great idea for a thread. I look forward to seeing the responses.
Some antis have expressed that illegal immigration has something to do with culture, and that Americans would never immigrate illegally.
I don't know about that. I've personally known Americans who've overstayed visas in Europe. But they are obviously not large in number. I don't think it's culture that causes illegal immigration, it's opportunities and ability to be able to immigrate illegally. I don't think there's anything in US culture that would keep Americans from immigrating illegally - it has more to do with the US historically having been prosperous and even in bad economic times like the present (at least up until this moment) offering better conditions than many other countries. If the U.S. goes from First World to Second World like Argentina due to years of bad governments, or if the U.S. becomes extremely unsafe like Israel, it could happen to us just like it has to those other countries rooted in immigration. I certainly don't want it to happen, of course.
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I think it would take A LOT for Americans to start emigrating in large numbers.
The only past example of Americans emigrating in large numbers was the result of a rather extreme situation: Confederates emigrating to Brazil after the Civil War, especially to Sao Paulo province. And for awhile they DID keep up their customs and their language and refused to integrate into Brazilian society. However with time they were unable to keep it up, and their descendants speak Portuguese and are part of Brazilian society and culture. In the small towns set up by Southern US immigrants to Brazil who fled Reconstruction, such as Americana, it is said that one can hear elderly people occasionally speaking in a very antique Southern dialect of the sort that one would've heard in Alabama or Georgia in about 1860. Many of the descendants of the "Confederados" now live in Sao Paulo itself, and European immigration in the late 19th/early 20th century changed the demographics of said towns. The main remaining legacy of this immigration is that organizations like the Sons of Confederate Veterans have larger chapters in Brazil than anywhere outside the Southern U.S., and Civil War re-enactments take place there (including mock battles between American and Brazilian re-enactors).
The most famous descendant of the "Confederados" is Brazilian rock singer and TV personality Rita Lee, who's descended from Robert E. Lee. When Jimmy Carter made an official state visit to Brazil, Rosalynn Carter visited relatives of hers living near Sao Paulo who'd left Georgia during Reconstruction.
Another example, although not on a scale large enough to constitute mass emigration: in the 1940s and 1950s, many African-Americans who could afford to move to Paris did so to escape U.S. racism, especially creative types. Most eventually came back to the U.S. but a few are still there (in November I read an article in which elderly American black expats living in France were interviewed about Obama's election).
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This country is so big, people would rather move to another area rather than leave the country.
There have been a noticeable number of Americans who've moved to New Zealand. An article in the LA Times a couple years ago referred to it as "the ultimate in white flight".
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I don't think Ill see it in my lifetime.
I should hope that the US never falls into such a condition that it would happen. However stranger things have happened in history.
OK, I'll "bite". I agree with your post, but I'll also be your first 'example'. I don't think Americans, as our present-day culture stands, would be "comfortable" emigrating illegally in large numbers into ANY foreign country
Canada? New Zealand? Australia? The UK? Ireland? Even Germany (Berlin is a major destination for American artsy types, especially gays)?
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and then loudly agitating for their (non-existant) "rights", and demanding concessions. That, I can state with certainty.
The 'catch' here lies with 'what if'. If America one day deteriorated into Third-World conditions, social upheaval, and dire, widespread poverty; if the American 'system' turned against the 'little people' to the point they no longer felt they had control over their own lives; if, in other words, America 'collapsed' as a society...THEN, I can envision Americans heading out for 'who knows where', and 'to hell with anyone who gets in my way'. That IS possible, and COULD happen, if things deteriorated enough.
That is essentially the hypothetical that I was dealing with.
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But at this point...today? No, Americans aren't going to do those things. And in the unlikely event that large numbers of Americans ever ended up living 'outside the system' in some other country, I believe they'd 'reach out' and try to WORK WITH the 'host country', rather than beligerently "demanding" things from them, "or else". I believe the American culture would cause people to be ASHAMED to behave that way
Not so sure about that. The "ugly American" stereotype does have some truth regarding a certain portion of our populace (obviously not all, and nowhere near even a majority). MOST Americans wouldn't demand things "or else" but some would.
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and their pride (if any remained) would prevent their 'whining' about their plight. THat's my guess, at least.
I think this would apply to some people, not to others.
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So there...your answer to the post. Let me ask you this, "aa"...IF we allowed ourselves to imagine such a scenario, where exactly do you envision Americans GOING..illegally or not? Who, in your opinion, would be willing to 'take us in'?
See above. The obvious destination for illegal American immigrants would be Canada.
The only past example of Americans emigrating in large numbers was the result of a rather extreme situation: Confederates emigrating to Brazil after the Civil War, especially to Sao Paulo province. And for awhile they DID keep up their customs and their language and refused to integrate into Brazilian society. However with time they were unable to keep it up, and their descendants speak Portuguese and are part of Brazilian society and culture. In the small towns set up by Southern US immigrants to Brazil who fled Reconstruction, such as Americana, it is said that one can hear elderly people occasionally speaking in a very antique Southern dialect of the sort that one would've heard in Alabama or Georgia in about 1860. Many of the descendants of the "Confederados" now live in Sao Paulo itself, and European immigration in the late 19th/early 20th century changed the demographics of said towns. The main remaining legacy of this immigration is that organizations like the Sons of Confederate Veterans have larger chapters in Brazil than anywhere outside the Southern U.S., and Civil War re-enactments take place there (including mock battles between American and Brazilian re-enactors).
The most famous descendant of the "Confederados" is Brazilian rock singer and TV personality Rita Lee, who's descended from Robert E. Lee. When Jimmy Carter made an official state visit to Brazil, Rosalynn Carter visited relatives of hers living near Sao Paulo who'd left Georgia during Reconstruction.
I should hope that the US never falls into such a condition that it would happen. However stranger things have happened in history.
VERY interesting post. Thanks! I WAS aware of the "Confederados", and in fact have been to Sao Paulo myself. I even RELAYED the story on another thread, on this forum just last week. I have NEVER, however, read such a detailed account as yours. Thanks again for an interesting read !!
(The other thread I was on was concerning "American Civil War veterans of BOTH sides who emigrated to Australia and New Zealand". Apparently there were quite a few, and today their descendants have some sort of 'association' and a website)...
In other business..I just read a tribute to American author James Baldwin, one of those blacks who fled to Paris in the 40's, just as you said. Tormented by the racism of Harlem, and by his personal 'demons', Baldwin nevetheless wrote of feeling more connected to the White American expatriates living in Paris, than to the many black Africans there. Like it or not, the Americans were 'family', while the Africans were strangers, having nothing in common with Baldwin except 'color'.
VERY interesting post. Thanks! I WAS aware of the "Confederados", and in fact have been to Sao Paulo myself. I even RELAYED the story on another thread, on this forum just last week. I have NEVER, however, read such a detailed account as yours. Thanks again for an interesting read !!
You're welcome.
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(The other thread I was on was concerning "American Civil War veterans of BOTH sides who emigrated to Australia and New Zealand". Apparently there were quite a few, and today their descendants have some sort of 'association' and a website)...
Never heard about the ACW veterans of both sides who emigrated to the Antipodes, but it doesn't surprise me one bit. Particularly considering that the Australian gold rushes were going on in the 1850s-1870s, and I knew that some prospectors whose luck turned sour in California had gone Down Under. It would make perfect sense for men coming back from the Civil War to go to Australia considering that even many Northerners would not have wanted to return to the same old civilian life considering what they went through.
In other business..I just read a tribute to American author James Baldwin, one of those blacks who fled to Paris in the 40's, just as you said. Tormented by the racism of Harlem, and by his personal 'demons'
Being a gay black man in 1940s America was not fun...
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Baldwin nevetheless wrote of feeling more connected to the White American expatriates living in Paris, than to the many black Africans there. Like it or not, the Americans were 'family', while the Africans were strangers, having nothing in common with Baldwin except 'color'.
I read that as well. He would have had a common background and cultural references with the white American expats, whereas the Caribbeans and Africans were products of a different culture.
Baldwin also wrote, IIRC, that as America got less racist, France got more racist. (However - I don't blame the blues and jazz musicians for staying in France rather than returning to the US. They were more able to make a living in Europe than in America, and their work was taken more seriously.)
Baldwin was not the only African-American who upon going abroad realized he had more in common with white Americans than foreign blacks. When Richard Pryor visited Africa he realized he had no cultural connection with the locals despite his slave ancestors having been taken from there.
VERY interesting post. Thanks! I WAS aware of the "Confederados", and in fact have been to Sao Paulo myself. I even RELAYED the story on another thread, on this forum just last week. I have NEVER, however, read such a detailed account as yours. Thanks again for an interesting read !!
(The other thread I was on was concerning "American Civil War veterans of BOTH sides who emigrated to Australia and New Zealand". Apparently there were quite a few, and today their descendants have some sort of 'association' and a website)...
In other business..I just read a tribute to American author James Baldwin, one of those blacks who fled to Paris in the 40's, just as you said. Tormented by the racism of Harlem, and by his personal 'demons', Baldwin nevetheless wrote of feeling more connected to the White American expatriates living in Paris, than to the many black Africans there. Like it or not, the Americans were 'family', while the Africans were strangers, having nothing in common with Baldwin except 'color'.
I have heard that same thing between Black and White South Africans living in London---------they seem to stick together vs. the 'indigenous' Brits-------Black or White.
Never heard about the ACW veterans of both sides who emigrated to the Antipodes, but it doesn't surprise me one bit. Particularly considering that the Australian gold rushes were going on in the 1850s-1870s, and I knew that some prospectors whose luck turned sour in California had gone Down Under. It would make perfect sense for men coming back from the Civil War to go to Australia considering that even many Northerners would not have wanted to return to the same old civilian life considering what they went through.
Having worked very briefly in the mining industry in California many years ago, I can tell you the 'gold rush' community was a rather rootless group, and sometimes the same people showed up in distant parts of the world..sort of like a 'closed community'.
Here in Southern California, we have two tiny old desert mining towns "Johannesburg" and neighboring "Randsburg"...pretty easy there to see the connection with South Africa, and ITS mining community. (they're still 'active', on a limited scale). A little farther north is the now-abandoned mining town of "Ballarat", named after the gold rush town of Ballarat, Victoria, Australia. "Small world" indeed, in the 'gold rush' community.
I have heard that same thing between Black and White South Africans living in London---------they seem to stick together vs. the 'indigenous' Brits-------Black or White.
Makes perfect sense to me. Baldwin described black and white Americans as 'family', and 'parties to a marriage'. May have been a dysfunctional marriage at times, but there was a familiarity there that wasn't shared with 'outsiders'
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