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Old 02-19-2009, 08:30 AM
 
Location: NorthTexas
634 posts, read 1,346,003 times
Reputation: 327

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These two Border Patrol officers were totally railroaded. I am very glad they are out, they should not have been in prison in the first place.

Last edited by EllenArlingtonPark; 02-19-2009 at 08:31 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,819,795 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
And yet you don't really check up on the "truth" yourself, and just take the word of people you want to believe
Assume much?

Unless you have some supernatural abilities, or have hacked into my computer; you donít know anything about me, other than what I choose to disclose on this forum. Therefore, you donít know what I may or may not know.
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:13 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Assume much?

Unless you have some supernatural abilities, or have hacked into my computer; you donít know anything about me, other than what I choose to disclose on this forum. Therefore, you donít know what I may or may not know.
You may be assuming here, too, though, Benicar. You don't have to have supernatural abilities, OR hack into a computer, to find out personal info on people.

Take me, for example. Want to know what I ate for dinner last Thursday? It's simple...just look at the stains on my shirt. Was the salsa good? Easy enough to find out..some of it's still clinging to my tie....
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:16 AM
 
67 posts, read 85,310 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus89 View Post
Well, I have to sympathize with these guys, and especially their families, for all that they've went through.

But they are not "heroes", no matter how hard some corners of the media would like to portray it. Fact is, they screwed up, made a terrible judgement call to tamper with evidence and try to cover up their actions, and they paid for it. As law enforcement officers they are beheld to higher standards than the rest of us, and they were sentenced accordingly.

I am glad for their families that they were able to be released, but they're still going to be paying for a while for their actions, even if they do somehow get a full pardon in the future.
These guys have an extremely dangerous job, wouldnt you agree? They have to worry about drug smugglers gunning for them everyday. These drug smugglers, especially the one who got shot, are known to be armed. Granted though he was shot in the arse. Anyways, these mexican drug smugglers are hardly ever held accountable for their actions because the mexican government protects their precious criminals. It takes us years to expidite these felons. We had to threaten Mexico last time in order to give up that guy that shot that sherriff deputy a few years back.
These border agents made some bad mistakes as far as covering the incident up, but I think there sentence was a bit overboard.
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,609 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
You seem to think that the families of these men would have NO insight into what actually happened?.....okay....

No, I did not know any concerned with this case before the incident. But I got to know many afterward. I would say that there has been information I've been made aware of that you would not be privy to. Considering the fact that there will likely be further litigation in this matter on behalf of the families, I refuse to disclose anything more than what is a matter of public record.

This is my last post on the subject. Thanks to the Constitution, there is a plethora of information out there for anyone interested enough to pursue it. I don't know why I should be expected to spend my (extremely minute amount of free time) researching for you and others who can't be bothered, when I have a minimum of three papers and a presentation due every week. I'm doing enough research on my own without doing yours as well.

Curious? Like to get at the truth rather than having your truth spoon-fed to you like so much baby food? Do your own research. I'm not your research asssistant. After all, you were able to use a thesaurus...

I think you just like to feel important, and make yourself sound important, so you're not willing to share the information that you know, even if it proves your claim that these men are innocent of any wrongdoing. But it's a free country, so I won't press you anymore(if I was pressing at all...I think you brought it up, and I asked you to explain, but whatever). If you ever feel free to share it, I'll be more than willing to listen.

Also, I can't really be bothered at the moment. I have a microscopic magnitude of time, because I have to work on a top secret government project that only I know of.
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,609 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeinIE View Post
These guys have an extremely dangerous job, wouldnt you agree? They have to worry about drug smugglers gunning for them everyday. These drug smugglers, especially the one who got shot, are known to be armed. Granted though he was shot in the arse. Anyways, these mexican drug smugglers are hardly ever held accountable for their actions because the mexican government protects their precious criminals. It takes us years to expidite these felons. We had to threaten Mexico last time in order to give up that guy that shot that sherriff deputy a few years back.
These border agents made some bad mistakes as far as covering the incident up, but I think there sentence was a bit overboard.
And I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you that the sentence is overboard.
I don't know why the drug smuggler keeps getting brought up. I haven't heard anyone support him.
It wasn't as much to defend the drug smuggler, as it was to say it's unacceptable for Border Patrol agents to break protocol like that.

Border Patrol agents do have a risky job, and sometimes they have to use deadly force to defend themselves. Another agent was recently found innocent of a quesionable use of force, and that's good. They need to be able to defend themselves.

But this particular case was fishy, and they were found guilty. The sentence was overkill though, considering the smuggler didn't die.
It's good these guys aren't going to rot in a jail cell with a sentence that doesn't fit the crime, but it's good they're no longer going to be in the field, and a message is sent to other law enforcement that they aren't above the law.

This kind of thing happens all the time with police officers. They have rules they have to follow in certain situations. If they get caught breaking those rules, there will be repercussions.

To me, the Border Patrol is just like the Police. Departments full of REAL people with different personalities, morals, opinions, prejudices, etc.
They are MANY, MANY good people that care about what they are doing, and they try their best to do their job under extremely tense situations, and they try to do it the right way without getting themselves killed in the process.

But there's also others who are just bullies. Bullies with a badge and gun, with a position of power.

I don't find it hard to believe that these guys were probably the latter type. I'm sure they were great guys, a lot of fun, good family men, and all that. But on the job, I'm sure they were different than at home.

Look at ALL the videos of police brutality that have come out with the advent of cellphones equipped with video cameras. This kind of stuff happens all the time. You don't think those same kind of bullies are somewhere in the Border Partrol as well?

The reason so many anti-illegal types were so quickly to support their cause was because they shot a Mexican national who was bringing pot across the border.
Before even most of the facts came out, these guys were presented as American heroes. It was nuts! What makes these guys heroes instead of the other BP agents who do their job right?

Do people give the same support for police officers who shoot unarmed men, because they "thought" they were in danger?
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:16 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,793,137 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus89 View Post
Well, I have to sympathize with these guys, and especially their families, for all that they've went through.

But they are not "heroes", no matter how hard some corners of the media would like to portray it. Fact is, they screwed up, made a terrible judgement call to tamper with evidence and try to cover up their actions, and they paid for it. As law enforcement officers they are beheld to higher standards than the rest of us, and they were sentenced accordingly.

I am glad for their families that they were able to be released, but they're still going to be paying for a while for their actions, even if they do somehow get a full pardon in the future.
I find it ironic that those who claim to stand for the "rule of law" would glorify lawbreakers as heroes.
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:16 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Do people give the same support for police officers who shoot unarmed men, because they "thought" they were in danger?
I have before....and will probably, again. Hate to say this, but I have to feel that the police are on "our side"..that is, the side of civilized society vs chaos. Doesn't always work that way, but I believe it's usually fair to take the side of the police, vs the side of the criminal, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.

The police "work for us"...you, me, and 'society'. We 'swear them in', train them, give them guns, and send them out to work. I'm not willing to do that work....you couldn't PAY me enough to work in that atmosphere, in that environment, with that kind of stress...but I'm glad SOMEBODY is willing to do it. (I'm not sure YOU'D want to do it, either).

If someone's willing to do that unpleasant job..if they've sworn an oath to 'do the right thing'....and if the day ever comes that they "think" they're in danger, then I'm going to take their word for it. I'm not out there...YOU'RE not out there....and you either trust the police, or you trust the crooks.

If you don't want the cops to SHOOT you, don't SCARE them. Don't take a swing at them, don't 'rush' them, don't 'grab their weapon from them' (as some genius did a year ago), don't "lunge" at them, and don't make sudden moves at 2 in the morning in a dark alley.

What do you DO?..Here's what I told MY boys...you shut up, you do what the officer tells you, you SIT STILL and you OBEY. I don't care if he's a JERK, a RACIST, or a NUMBSKULL..that officer has a gun..YOU sit still, 'bite your tongue', and you live to see your grandkids.

If the officer is wrong, file a complaint. It MAY work. Next time, avoid situations in which you 'draw the interest' of the cops.

Not a perfect solution, but it beats the HELL out of getting shot. And in the final analysis, I trust the cops more than I trust the crooks. Crooks shoot unarmed people all the TIME..and often get away with it. Cops shoot unarmed people only OCCASIONALLY...and are then 'investigated'.

It's an ugly world out there. BEST advice is to avoid the "ugly" part. If you can't do THAT, avoid antagonizing the cops. But even if you DO, you'll probably get a better deal by antagonizing the cops, than you will if you antagonize the 'gang bangers'. "Bangers" don't take an oath, and we don't investigate them; and gangs don't assign "shooters" to desk jobs when they get caught.

Are Ramos and Compean "American Heroes"? I don't know...I wasn't there. Neither was Johnny Sutton. But I'm not ready to say "I could have done it better", either...
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:34 PM
 
2,256 posts, read 2,964,077 times
Reputation: 1215
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeinIE View Post
These guys have an extremely dangerous job, wouldnt you agree? They have to worry about drug smugglers gunning for them everyday. These drug smugglers, especially the one who got shot, are known to be armed. Granted though he was shot in the arse. Anyways, these mexican drug smugglers are hardly ever held accountable for their actions because the mexican government protects their precious criminals. It takes us years to expidite these felons. We had to threaten Mexico last time in order to give up that guy that shot that sherriff deputy a few years back.
These border agents made some bad mistakes as far as covering the incident up, but I think there sentence was a bit overboard.
I agree with everything you're saying. Working in the Border Patrol is a very dangerous job indeed, and it looks like it has recently become more so. I can't criticize the officers for shooting a man who they had thought was armed. I can't say what I would do in their place, because I probably would have done the same.

But they did make that mistake you mention, and they were sentenced for it. Were their sentences too harsh? In my opinion, yes, it was, but they are not completely innocent of any wrongdoing.
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Old 02-19-2009, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,609 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus89 View Post
I agree with everything you're saying. Working in the Border Patrol is a very dangerous job indeed, and it looks like it has recently become more so. I can't criticize the officers for shooting a man who they had thought was armed. I can't say what I would do in their place, because I probably would have done the same.

But they did make that mistake you mention, and they were sentenced for it. Were their sentences too harsh? In my opinion, yes, it was, but they are not completely innocent of any wrongdoing.
According to what I heard(which according to some, I'm way off on), the shooting wasn't reported, and covered up.
If that's the case, that's the big mistake they had made.
I don't think all this fuss would have been made if they handled everything AFTER the shooting the right way.

Besides that, I'm a little suspicious on the fact the dude was shot in the ass which means he wasn't face them when they shot at him. But I guess I can't really assume too much on that.
I'd feel better about the "We coulda sworn he had a gun in his hand!" thing if wasn't shot in the back and was reportedly running back into Mexico.
It makes more sense to me that the guy would ditch his load of marijuana and run back to the safety of Mexico than have a shootout over drugs that don't even belong to him.
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