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Old 02-19-2009, 11:17 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,333,969 times
Reputation: 1424

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Do you support a balkanized U.S. with open borders?
well I don't think locally, I tend to think globally, so I would support a more realistic approach to immigration, less hipocrisy, less under the table deals, less lies, more tolerance and acceptance, but also stricter controls.

And this globally, not just locally, for me balkanization = lack of tolerance.

in a more tolerant society people would be less restricted to move to another country, but will be required more responsiblity, like assimilating, sink or swim, people won't reject you, they won't shun you, but then you have to demonstrate an honest effort to assimilate, otherwise you'd have to go back, or try a different country and see if you are more able to assimilte here, we already have the technology to have this degree of control, but it hasn't been used because there are interests globally, to keep illegal immigration in it's current state, and this happens not just in the USA, but in Europe, India, Chile, Mexico, Brazil and a lot of other countries that you wouldn't even imagine. In some countries it has reached epic proportions though.

A lot of people develops a self defense mechanism when they feel rejected, so they reject their host country culture instead of assimilating.

Now, all of this is kind of phillosophical because we don't have any real power to enact those changes, although we could change our attitude regarding people in the illegal situation, or our interest in other cultures. And it also creates room for more interesting discussions than the eternal pro illegal - anti illegal discussions.

Love and Light
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Old 02-19-2009, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,899,869 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
well I don't think locally, I tend to think globally, so I would support a more realistic approach to immigration, less hipocrisy, less under the table deals, less lies, more tolerance and acceptance, but also stricter controls.

And this globally, not just locally, for me balkanization = lack of tolerance.

in a more tolerant society people would be less restricted to move to another country, but will be required more responsiblity, like assimilating, sink or swim, people won't reject you, they won't shun you, but then you have to demonstrate an honest effort to assimilate, otherwise you'd have to go back, or try a different country and see if you are more able to assimilte here, we already have the technology to have this degree of control, but it hasn't been used because there are interests globally, to keep illegal immigration in it's current state, and this happens not just in the USA, but in Europe, India, Chile, Mexico, Brazil and a lot of other countries that you wouldn't even imagine. In some countries it has reached epic proportions though.

A lot of people develops a self defense mechanism when they feel rejected, so they reject their host country culture instead of assimilating.

Now, all of this is kind of phillosophical because we don't have any real power to enact those changes, although we could change our attitude regarding people in the illegal situation, or our interest in other cultures. And it also creates room for more interesting discussions than the eternal pro illegal - anti illegal discussions.

Love and Light
In other words, YES. Gotta run. Take care.
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Old 02-19-2009, 11:55 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,682,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Illegal immigration has existed for many years without much opposition, until recently. The difference being. . . . sheer numbers, mega tax-funded benefits, lack of assimilation -- primarily due to unprecedented accommodations, arrogance, and a sense of entitlement.

I wish I could be as optimistic as antialphabet, but I believe illegal immigration will be the final nail in the U.S. coffin. Sure, we’ll have the same geography, but we will no longer be the ‘United’ States. Without a predominant culture, we will essentially be a balkanized nation -- every ethnicity will have its own ‘America,’ and will determine its respective mores.

The melting pot has been the catalyst for much of the progress this nation has made. We learned to embrace ethnic diversity under one ‘American’ cultural banner. Now, we are embarking upon a much different diversity. . . . one that does not unite, but divides. A nation divided……..
I agree wholeheartedly. As you've heard me say, (until I'm sure you're tired of hearing it), I have a long history of amicable relationships with illegal immigrants. Decades ago, illegal immigration (like so many, many OTHER things) was looked at, (quite reasonably, I think) as 'a 'victimless crime', 'no big problem', and a generally 'win-win' situation for all concerned. Few Americans in those days objected to illegals, who REALLY WERE, quite literally, "doing the jobs Americans didn't want to do"....The illegals, for their part, were HAPPY to be here, GLAD not to be "back home", and were generally cheerful, optimistic people with a LOT of pride, and a tremendous work ethic. WE "needed" them to fill many jobs, and they "needed" our support and approval. It worked out well, and I have many friends who were once illegal, or who had one, or two, illegal parents.

Those days are gone. Illegals have exploded in number, precisely at the time that the need for unskilled people in our economy is dwindling. We constantly exhort our own teenagers to 'stay in school...go to college...because without THAT, you'll be hard pressed to make a living'....and at the same time we try to find 'reasons' why millions of unskilled, illegal, uneducated, non-English speaking 'newcomers' shouldn't be able to "make a living", "have advantages", be "represented in society", and find "the good life".

It makes NO sense, it's illogical, it's a ludicrous argument, and in MY opinion, at least 30% of those who are "anti-illegal", and 70% of those who are "pro-illegal", are in this debate for NO OTHER REASON than simple ethnic solidarity, ethnic intolerance, 'white guilt', and racist sentiments. Take away the "ethnic" angle, and this whole argument would disappear in six months....I'd be willing to bet on it. Illegal immigration, if it existed, would be looked at as a simple problem of trespass (which it is), no more worthy of argument than speeding, drunk driving, tax evasion, or practicing medicine without a license. Racism, intolerance and ethnic pride, on BOTH sides, is what fuels the "immigration"() debate....that's why it has its own forum, and that's why it arouses such passion. Take away the ethnic angle, and "illegal immigration" would be way off there somewhere, along with the thread about "sexual harrassment in the workplace"...

That might not please everyone..but it's my opinion.
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Old 02-19-2009, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Lake Norman, North Carolina
1,213 posts, read 1,404,955 times
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All of this touchy feely agenda insight from anchors and pro illegal enablers? Balkanization is starting to ruin this nation before our very eyes. True Americans who can remember when this country was the greatest country in the world will never accept this invasion by the illegal Mexican horde.
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:21 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,333,969 times
Reputation: 1424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In other words, YES. Gotta run. Take care.
Well that was your interpretation to my answer, but not what I actually meant, I believe that this question should be asked to the American society and not a single individual.

So does the American society want a balkanized country with open borders? On the surface it could appear that nobody wants it. But then how come people keeps hiring illegals, how come nobody has done anything to effectively punish people who hires illegal aliens? how come nobody has reformed the Social Security to avoid further frauds, and a long etc.

I only stated that in my perception the world is heading to a different direction than the one we had in the 20th century, with definite borders and less problems with illegal immigration, now borders are becoming weaker and illegal immigrants are becoming something overwhelming, and not just in America.

Take care you too, see you around
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Old 02-20-2009, 12:54 AM
 
608 posts, read 884,713 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In other words, YES. Gotta run. Take care.
But the US has already has been and continues to go through balkanizing waves of sorts and varying degrees: Civil War, Segregation, Religious right, Politics, States, Cities, Counties, Regions, Generation Gaps, Hippies, organized labor, language/slang, hick/city clicker, position on immigration, etc.
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Old 02-20-2009, 09:07 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 59,087,301 times
Reputation: 22182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
well I don't think locally, I tend to think globally, so I would support a more realistic approach to immigration, less hipocrisy, less under the table deals, less lies, more tolerance and acceptance, but also stricter controls.

And this globally, not just locally, for me balkanization = lack of tolerance.

in a more tolerant society people would be less restricted to move to another country, but will be required more responsiblity, like assimilating, sink or swim, people won't reject you, they won't shun you, but then you have to demonstrate an honest effort to assimilate, otherwise you'd have to go back, or try a different country and see if you are more able to assimilte here, we already have the technology to have this degree of control, but it hasn't been used because there are interests globally, to keep illegal immigration in it's current state, and this happens not just in the USA, but in Europe, India, Chile, Mexico, Brazil and a lot of other countries that you wouldn't even imagine. In some countries it has reached epic proportions though.

A lot of people develops a self defense mechanism when they feel rejected, so they reject their host country culture instead of assimilating.

Now, all of this is kind of phillosophical because we don't have any real power to enact those changes, although we could change our attitude regarding people in the illegal situation, or our interest in other cultures. And it also creates room for more interesting discussions than the eternal pro illegal - anti illegal discussions.

Love and Light

Well maybe less hypocrisy would mean that Mexico has to throw open it's borders, eliminate it's immigration laws and allow anyone to move in, buy up property, take jobs, vote in Mexico's elections.

All other nations in the world have immigration laws and the USA takes in BY FAR more legal immigrants than any other nation in the world.

There is a legal process, but there are those who believe they are above the law, they have zero respect for the laws and culture of the USA which makes them right off the bat the worst kind of immigrant. We don't have a shortage of people who would like to come here but no way should those who break the laws be rewarded with citizenship while those who respect the laws are forced to wait.
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:01 AM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,169 posts, read 3,275,926 times
Reputation: 659
I agree ethnicity is the general amplifier in this debate. No one really gives a **** how Mexicans treat Guatemalan illegals or how Malaysia treats Filipino illegals. I also believe the only reason pro-illegals have any sort of power and influence is because of the backing of business,capitalist and globalist interests. Almost every major global event in the history of mankind (good or bad) was ignited by greed. $$$$$$. Same thing here. The irony of course in this case is the information economy these global elitists created to further expand their ambitions is what is throwing a wrench in finalizing their plans. Right back at em'.
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:06 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,817,592 times
Reputation: 47480
france is ate up with it. bunch of people low education and pretty primative move to affluent countries very advanced with a tight social structure. culture clash big time. you gota have equivalent of a MA to even get a job in france. these guys cant do K12. they just dont have it.
barely speak french and they were born there.
anyway, we got it here too. we are richer but man we moved a lot of industry out of the country, so its guna be rough for a lota people, i mean if it gets rough pop is guna have to mow his own lawn or heaven forbid jr get off the couch and do it instead of jose. worse mama is guna have to turn off the tv and clean her own house instead of maria. its guna get rough.
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