U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-18-2009, 06:51 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,302,507 times
Reputation: 1423

Advertisements

Many countries are dealing with this problem now, and not just First world countries as many would think, but many developing countries face it too.

Your thoughts?

If you think it will be just a transitory phase, what would mark the end of it?

Thanks and regards!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-18-2009, 07:13 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983
The ultimate state of the world will probably NOT be legally-defined "nations" as we now know them. I've given MUCH thought to this, and there's almost NO limit as to what could happen....but it won't be like it is now. Perhaps some nations will merge, as others split apart. Ethnic group, unwilling to forsake their cultures, MAY seek some form of self-government. Greenland is an example, (now nearly self-governing) as is Nunavut (the newest division of Canada, governed and mostly populated by Inuit [eskimo] inhabitants) Nunavik (northern Quebec) is now on its way to autonomous self-government by its mostly Cree Indian inhabitants. Indigenous, aboriginal people all over the world are now demanding self-government, with some success.

At the same time, the world is 'shrinking', economies are increasingly inter-dependent, and borders are becoming increasingly irrelevant, quite aside from their "emotional" value. Huge, multi-national corporations and 'conglomerates, many of them with resources and finances and 'clout' far in excess of many nations, are rendering the concept of 'citizenship' and 'immigration' increasingly meaningless. Often the same corporation has operations going in dozens of nations.

How this affects "illegal immigration' is anybody's guess. Will there be a 'backlash' against it in some places, as nations seek to 'preserve what's theirs', by any means? Quite likely there WILL be. Will this mean an END to illegal immigration? Probably NOT...

The future is anybody's guess. But it will be interesting.

(My private prediction is that in the coming century, we may see WARS started not by "countries" nor by "terrorist groups", but by CORPORATIONS..or 'syndicates', struggling to control resources..And if that happened, how would we respond...since MOST of them have HUGE assets, have no single 'address', and are represented in many distant parts of the world..?)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2009, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,129 posts, read 9,217,004 times
Reputation: 8990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Many countries are dealing with this problem now, and not just First world countries as many would think, but many developing countries face it too.

Your thoughts?

If you think it will be just a transitory phase, what would mark the end of it?

Thanks and regards!
As long as there is a benefit for employers to hire illlegal labor, the illegals will have an economic opportunity.

In the U.S.A., the socialist overhead for hiring legal workers is bypassed by hiring undocumented labor. If there were no benefits (or severe penalties), employers would no longer seek them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2009, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,900,298 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
The ultimate state of the world will probably NOT be legally-defined "nations" as we now know them. I've given MUCH thought to this, and there's almost NO limit as to what could happen....but it won't be like it is now. Perhaps some nations will merge, as others split apart. Ethnic group, unwilling to forsake their cultures, MAY seek some form of self-government. Greenland is an example, (now nearly self-governing) as is Nunavut (the newest division of Canada, governed and mostly populated by Inuit [eskimo] inhabitants) Nunavik (northern Quebec) is now on its way to autonomous self-government by its mostly Cree Indian inhabitants. Indigenous, aboriginal people all over the world are now demanding self-government, with some success.

At the same time, the world is 'shrinking', economies are increasingly inter-dependent, and borders are becoming increasingly irrelevant, quite aside from their "emotional" value. Huge, multi-national corporations and 'conglomerates, many of them with resources and finances and 'clout' far in excess of many nations, are rendering the concept of 'citizenship' and 'immigration' increasingly meaningless. Often the same corporation has operations going in dozens of nations.

How this affects "illegal immigration' is anybody's guess. Will there be a 'backlash' against it in some places, as nations seek to 'preserve what's theirs', by any means? Quite likely there WILL be. Will this mean an END to illegal immigration? Probably NOT...

The future is anybody's guess. But it will be interesting.

(My private prediction is that in the coming century, we may see WARS started not by "countries" nor by "terrorist groups", but by CORPORATIONS..or 'syndicates', struggling to control resources..And if that happened, how would we respond...since MOST of them have HUGE assets, have no single 'address', and are represented in many distant parts of the world..?)
I have a problem with that theory that certain traditionally underrepresented minority ethnic groups having a voice will lead to problems.

I don't believe that others assimilated at the blink of an eye in the past "good old days". They were just really marginalized, and were left out of the mainstream.

I feel today we are at our most integrated, and the relationship of our diverse(American) society is getting better all the time.

It's one thing to talk about "ethnic groups making demands", but on the street, it's a whole different thing.

I'm seeing less self-imposed segregation in my personal encounters with society, compared to when I was a lot younger. And that's just in my relatively short lifetime.

And with the more integrated society that I'm seeing, the "dropping" of culture and "ethnic pride" is not required. If anything, I'm seeing more of an acceptance and appreciation of others respective cultures.
Of course, I'm speaking about decent people, mature, regular folks. There will always be the ignorant types that will clash with those different than them.

I don't see the fears of this divide over ethnic groups. Things are better than ever. And I think they're going to keep getting better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2009, 09:20 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
I have a problem with that theory that certain traditionally underrepresented minority ethnic groups having a voice will lead to problems.

I don't believe that others assimilated at the blink of an eye in the past "good old days". They were just really marginalized, and were left out of the mainstream.

I feel today we are at our most integrated, and the relationship of our diverse(American) society is getting better all the time.

It's one thing to talk about "ethnic groups making demands", but on the street, it's a whole different thing.

I'm seeing less self-imposed segregation in my personal encounters with society, compared to when I was a lot younger. And that's just in my relatively short lifetime.

And with the more integrated society that I'm seeing, the "dropping" of culture and "ethnic pride" is not required. If anything, I'm seeing more of an acceptance and appreciation of others respective cultures.
Of course, I'm speaking about decent people, mature, regular folks. There will always be the ignorant types that will clash with those different than them.

I don't see the fears of this divide over ethnic groups. Things are better than ever. And I think they're going to keep getting better.
You might be right...no one knows, because only very recently in history has anyone even DREAMED of voluntarily and willingly creating a 'multi-ethnic' nation...(the US was about the first place where this was done intentionally)....and only in MY LIFETIME has anyone seriously contemplated any society ever truly setting out to be 'multicultural' beyond the most superficial level (no, visiting a Thai restaurant, or the Russian ballet, or attending a charreada, does NOT mean one has 'adopted' the cultures of Thailand, or Russia, or Mexico).

I'm still not convinced 'multiculturalism' (in MY day, a 'fad' idea popular among college students, teenagers,etc) can ever really move beyond the 'fun' stage...the 'superficial'. At a deeper level, cultures are NOT always compatible, and CAN be violently opposed to each other...and you can't have them side-by-side, unless SOMEONE "gives in". One culture must 'defer' to the other, period. SOME of that 'incompatibility' is exactly what you're seing on this forum....anti-illegals insisting on 'rule of law', pro-illegals insisting 'laws aren't important..feelings are'...and each side 'convinced' the other side is wrong. And THIS 'clash' is a mild one, compared to the clashes that COULD develop if two dozen cultures got together and each INSISTED its way was the "right" way. So we'll have to either "back down" or perish. Should work FINE, provided everybody's willing to "back down". I don't believe everyone will be.

But as I said, you COULD be right, because a multicultural society, with varying ethics, notions of 'right and wrong', and varying attitudes toward the 'norms' of society, has never really existed up to now (and STILL doesn't...really...that's why we have all the 'dissension'). Therefore there's no 'track record' by which to measure whether it will work, or not. It would be nice, of course, if it DID...but at this point, I can't see too many people wanting to 'accomodate' their cultures to get along with others..most of us want the OTHER GUY to do the changing...and that's the problem, because each and every one of "us" is someone else's "other guy".

Should be interesting.

Last edited by macmeal; 02-18-2009 at 09:54 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2009, 09:45 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983
Good thoughts, Antialphabet..here's a addendum to mine...basically your view is a 'best case scenario'. You're saying, in effect, that mature, thoughtful, respectful, and 'nice' people of differing cultures will just naturally want to 'get along'. Of course, I agree. But "nice", thoughtful people get along anyway.

My view, though, is more of a 'worst case scenario'. Good people don't NEED laws...but what about those who DON'T get along? (and for THAT matter, who defines what's 'good'..or 'reasonable'...or 'normal?). It's a BIG BIG world out there, and I've been over a good part of it, and I can assure you that there are SOME people out there that MAY not get along next door to some OTHERS. They get along because they live apart. Move them next door to each other, And Tell Them It's OK to carry on as Usual with their respective CULTURES....and there COULD be trouble. Our 'immigrant arrivals' in the past (my own ancestors included) had no choice but to assimilate ASAP, or suffer social stigma and pressure. A cruel system (like a 'boot camp'), but it served to galvanize a diverse 'rabble' into a recognizable society.

In MY opinion, you can't HAVE a diverse society without having this "galvanizing'" process....and it's not 'natural', it's usually done under pressure. You (and many others) seem to feel this isn't neccessary..that diverse people can just show up, "be themselves" indefinitely, and will just "get along", because that's what people DO..they 'get along'.

Honestly, I feel your view is hopelessly optimistic. Sounds 'fun' in good times, but I believe a disjointed society like that would fall apart under pressure (such as war, famine, national crisis, etc etc).

But I respect your right to your opinion, I envy your optimism, and I concede that we'll never know who's right until we're put to the test.

Good luck to all of us...

Last edited by macmeal; 02-18-2009 at 09:59 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2009, 01:06 AM
 
2,256 posts, read 2,964,961 times
Reputation: 1215
Illegal immigration is something that's going to be around for a while, at least as long as there are large wealth disparities between countries and the requisite demand for illegal labor in the wealthier nations.

But about an "end"? I don't know about that, unless humanity evolves to the point where nation-states become obsolete. I won't even venture to guess when that far off time could be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2009, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,823,428 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Many countries are dealing with this problem now, and not just First world countries as many would think, but many developing countries face it too.

Your thoughts?

If you think it will be just a transitory phase, what would mark the end of it?

Thanks and regards!
Illegal immigration has existed for many years without much opposition, until recently. The difference being. . . . sheer numbers, mega tax-funded benefits, lack of assimilation -- primarily due to unprecedented accommodations, arrogance, and a sense of entitlement.

I wish I could be as optimistic as antialphabet, but I believe illegal immigration will be the final nail in the U.S. coffin. Sure, we’ll have the same geography, but we will no longer be the ‘United’ States. Without a predominant culture, we will essentially be a balkanized nation -- every ethnicity will have its own ‘America,’ and will determine its respective mores.

The melting pot has been the catalyst for much of the progress this nation has made. We learned to embrace ethnic diversity under one ‘American’ cultural banner. Now, we are embarking upon a much different diversity. . . . one that does not unite, but divides. A nation divided……..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2009, 10:06 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,302,507 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Illegal immigration has existed for many years without much opposition, until recently. The difference being. . . . sheer numbers, mega tax-funded benefits, lack of assimilation -- primarily due to unprecedented accommodations, arrogance, and a sense of entitlement.

I wish I could be as optimistic as antialphabet, but I believe illegal immigration will be the final nail in the U.S. coffin. Sure, we’ll have the same geography, but we will no longer be the ‘United’ States. Without a predominant culture, we will essentially be a balkanized nation -- every ethnicity will have its own ‘America,’ and will determine its respective mores.

The melting pot has been the catalyst for much of the progress this nation has made. We learned to embrace ethnic diversity under one ‘American’ cultural banner. Now, we are embarking upon a much different diversity. . . . one that does not unite, but divides. A nation divided……..
It is true, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing, there are countries that have a different language and culture in every state (India comes to mind)

And sure they face tough challenges, and in many things they are less advanced than western countries (even Mexico) but yet, right now their economies and societies are growing at a pace much faster than ours, so it looks like they are overcoming those problems and building a succesful country and society for the future.

Unfortunately, we human beings like to believe, that we have control over things, but this is an illusion, the only thing that we can control is our mental state and actions, other than that, we are subject to the transitory, impermanent and dualistic nature of this world.

countries, societies, borders, languages, customs, people, they all go away sooner or later, in 250 years neither you nor me will be around anymore, countries last more sometimes, but nothing guarantees their permanency either, and even if they survive, they won't be the same country or culture, you can compare the United States of the 50's with this United States and see that is a completely different country, and as more time passes it will become more and more different.

We can either accept those changes and try to adapt or fight them, sometimes fighting them can earn more time, but eventually the change will get here.

Finally as a conclusion I would like to add that, internet and forums are a social experiment, people from different countries/cultures/points of views come here. Sometimes those points of view or cultural differences clash, yet thanks to the moderators and guidelines, people quickly develop a forum culture, so you could say that all of us share the same forum culture, we communicate in the same language, and try to be respectful regarding other's ideas and avoid personal attacks, yet we all come from different backgrounds.

what if as information technologies become more widespread people start to develop a global culture with similar standards of behavior, yet they still possess differences regarding customs, laguage, etc.

what if this eventually creates a supranational authority composed of a group of bright minds that regulate behaviors in a way that is acceptable for most people? it has never happened in the past, but it doesn't mean that it couldn't happen
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2009, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,823,428 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
It is true, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing, there are countries that have a different language and culture in every state (India comes to mind)

And sure they face tough challenges, and in many things they are less advanced than western countries (even Mexico) but yet, right now their economies and societies are growing at a pace much faster than ours, so it looks like they are overcoming those problems and building a succesful country and society for the future.

Unfortunately, we human beings like to believe, that we have control over things, but this is an illusion, the only thing that we can control is our mental state and actions, other than that, we are subject to the transitory, impermanent and dualistic nature of this world.

countries, societies, borders, languages, customs, people, they all go away sooner or later, in 250 years neither you nor me will be around anymore, countries last more sometimes, but nothing guarantees permanency either.

We can either accept those changes and try to adapt or fight them, sometimes fighting them can earn more time, but eventually the change will get here.
Do you support a balkanized U.S. with open borders?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top