U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-04-2009, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,584,130 times
Reputation: 3785

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
How exactly are we DEPENDENT on Mexico? What, for cheap labor? Please. If we need more labor, then we should extend FAR more Visas to displaced Iraqis. They'd be better-educated and far more appreciative of a new start. There is a huge number of Christian refugees from Iraq in Syria -- we can bring a couple hundred thousand here, if you'd like. And I'm fairly certain that they would not be marching in our streets waving the Iraqi flag and demanding more welfare benefits.

Let's see. For what else are we dependent on Mexico -- drugs? Tainted produce? Candy and soft drinks with high levels of lead?

Sorry, but some of those "dependencies" are problems that our society actually needs to fix. Eating seasonal produce that is grown here is healthier for people AND the environment. Hiring people cheaply to clean American homes and manicure yards contributes to our national obesity problem. Obviously, we need to address addiction problems.

Only relatively equal relationships between nations are healthy. There is nothing REMOTELY equal about our relationship with Mexico. They use us to prop up their country and refuse to CHANGE the practices and policies that keep their country corrupt and poor. There is little reason for Mexico to be poor. The country has a wealth of natural resources and industries but protectionism and corruption allow their elite to thrive -- they actively export their poor to us to avoid having to change.
And too if the USA spirals down much further---------that could wind up destroying Mexico.

The cold reality is that Mx needs us more than we need it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-04-2009, 01:47 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,287,648 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
How exactly are we DEPENDENT on Mexico? What, for cheap labor? Please. If we need more labor, then we should extend FAR more Visas to displaced Iraqis. They'd be better-educated and far more appreciative of a new start. There is a huge number of Christian refugees from Iraq in Syria -- we can bring a couple hundred thousand here, if you'd like. And I'm fairly certain that they would not be marching in our streets waving the Iraqi flag and demanding more welfare benefits.

Let's see. For what else are we dependent on Mexico -- drugs? Tainted produce? Candy and soft drinks with high levels of lead?
The US is dependent on Mexico's Oil, Manufactured goods, Food, Beer, Sugar, Soft drinks, and yes cheap workers too, everybody is aware that the root of the problem regarding illegal immigration is that the US government looks the other way and doesn't do anything that is really effective to curtail illegal immigration or end benefits for her illegal population because of the dependence on this workers, the government has created a huge mess because of this, just like drug cartels grew that much in Mexico because of decades of inaction, the illegal population in the US grew that much because of decades of inaction, it might be neither right nor fair to have masses of people demanding things they aren't entitled to, but what about the pandering politicians that promise them those things? or those corporations who hire and protect them?

Because of the wage disparity between both countries, a lot of countries (including the USA) manufacture goods in Mexico, such as cars, computers, reactors, airship parts, tv's and a long etc with the intent of selling them in the American market, which has became a really lucrative business.

Quote:
Sorry, but some of those "dependencies" are problems that our society actually needs to fix. Eating seasonal produce that is grown here is healthier for people AND the environment. Hiring people cheaply to clean American homes and manicure yards contributes to our national obesity problem. Obviously, we need to address addiction problems.
Point taken, yet there are some varieties of vegetables that can't be grown in the US, regarding those problems the society needs to fix, I believe you hit the nail on the spot, but what do you propose to adress and solve those addictive behaviors?

Quote:
Only relatively equal relationships between nations are healthy. There is nothing REMOTELY equal about our relationship with Mexico. They use us to prop up their country and refuse to CHANGE the practices and policies that keep their country corrupt and poor. There is little reason for Mexico to be poor. The country has a wealth of natural resources and industries but protectionism and corruption allow their elite to thrive -- they actively export their poor to us to avoid having to change.
This is very true, but the US uses Mexico as much as it is used by Mexico, that's what has created such problems, the relationship needs to change, but will it change? I believe that if everything changes over time it'll change.

Now do you have any idea of the changes in Mexico? everything has changed so much in 30 years and is continuing to change as we speak, but you can't solve problems that took centuries to grow to it's present level in a couple of years, yet things are changing and very fast, Mexico is one of the most open countries in the world, so protectionism is not the problem, corruption it is though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 01:49 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,287,648 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And too if the USA spirals down much further---------that could wind up destroying Mexico.

The cold reality is that Mx needs us more than we need it.
Nobody denies that fact, if the US sinks Mexico will sink too, but the same applies backwards, if Mexico sank into chaos there would be a big ruckus in the USA, so big you don't even have an idea (Neither do I) this is not a contest on who's better or who needs the other more, the cold truth is that both countries are in the same boat, we can accept it, deny it, like it or dislike it, but that won't change the way the things are.

Just imagine the amount of people from the US living in Mexico that would be affected if something happens, or the magnitude of US investments that would be affected, a huge chunk of income for American corporations comes from consumption in the Mexican market, if that disappeared you'd see a lot of people loosing their jobs and savings in the US, a substantial amount of Oil that the US needs would disappear as well, and a long etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,062 posts, read 15,852,907 times
Reputation: 3677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You hit the nail square on the head. Excellent post!!
Thank you. Having spent quite a bit of time traveling around Mexico and living on the Border for 13 years, I really don't get this "we need Mexico" mindset. It's unhealthy for both countries but it's devastating to Mexico, especially. It prevents a commitment to change that country's classist system and unhealthy economic practices. A modern country CANNOT rely on a 19th Century, elitist structure in the 21st Century unless it's enabled by others.

The U.S. has to stop enabling. We need to secure our borders, stop being used as a poverty escape valve, and offer aid in exchange for making drastic economic improvements and policy changes. Their protectionist policies won't even allow other countries to invest in their most lucrative commodities and improve their mode of business and education.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,584,130 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
Thank you. Having spent quite a bit of time traveling around Mexico and living on the Border for 13 years, I really don't get this "we need Mexico" mindset. It's unhealthy for both countries but it's devastating to Mexico, especially. It prevents a commitment to change that country's classist system and unhealthy economic practices. A modern country CANNOT rely on a 19th Century, elitist structure in the 21st Century unless it's enabled by others.

The U.S. has to stop enabling. We need to secure our borders, stop being used as a poverty escape valve, and offer aid in exchange for making drastic economic improvements and policy changes. Their protectionist policies won't even allow other countries to invest in their most lucrative commodities and improve their mode of business and education.
The ball is in Mexico's court: again; either that nation grows up or it will shatter into anarchy--------with the USA likely picking up at least the northern tier of Mx states and forcing them to accept our rules and culture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,062 posts, read 15,852,907 times
Reputation: 3677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
The US is dependent on Mexico's Oil, Manufactured goods, Food, Beer, Sugar, Soft drinks, and yes cheap workers too, everybody is aware that the root of the problem regarding illegal immigration is that the US government looks the other way and doesn't do anything that is really effective to curtail illegal immigration or end benefits for her illegal population because of the dependence on this workers, the government has created a huge mess because of this, just like drug cartels grew that much in Mexico because of decades of inaction, the illegal population in the US grew that much because of decades of inaction, it might be neither right nor fair to have masses of people demanding things they aren't entitled to, but what about the pandering politicians that promise them those things? or those corporations who hire and protect them?

Because of the wage disparity between both countries, a lot of countries (including the USA) manufacture goods in Mexico, such as cars, computers, reactors, airship parts, tv's and a long etc with the intent of selling them in the American market, which has became a really lucrative business.

Point taken, yet there are some varieties of vegetables that can't be grown in the US, regarding those problems the society needs to fix, I believe you hit the nail on the spot, but what do you propose to adress and solve those addictive behaviors?

This is very true, but the US uses Mexico as much as it is used by Mexico, that's what has created such problems, the relationship needs to change, but will it change? I believe that if everything changes over time it'll change.

Now do you have any idea of the changes in Mexico? everything has changed so much in 30 years and is continuing to change as we speak, but you can't solve problems that took centuries to grow to it's present level in a couple of years, yet things are changing and very fast, Mexico is one of the most open countries in the world, so protectionism is not the problem, corruption it is though.
I'm not skilled with separating out the quotes and responding, so I apologise ahead of time if I don't address all of your points.

First off, there is nothing manufactured in Mexico that we can't buy elsewhere and, perhaps, more cheaply. The shine is off the maquiladora industry as Mexico has fallen out of favor -- other countries offer much cheaper production costs, fewer security concerns, a more reliable workforce, etc. NAFTA commitments have required that we buy from Mexico when, in many cases, that might not be in our best interests.

I live in Texas and we get hit with recalls and warnings every year due to safety concerns over Mexican products. They still use LEAD in their paints and such and the lead contaminates the candy, beverages, toys, etc. Children in the U.S. have suffered developmental impairments from consuming Mexican products. Google for that -- there have been many articles written about it. I won't touch Mexican products.

Moreover, it came out when these lead-tainted products were discovered that Mexico actually produces separately for export. The food and drinks produced for its own citizens contained HUGE levels of lead and contaminants. My God, how can they knowingly DO that to their own people?! And how can they have NO COMPUNCTION about reassuring Americans that the products they send us are made to a higher standard than what they produce for their citizens? It's horrible.

Anyone who has had contact with illegal laborers and their work know firsthand that it may not be "cheap." I had countless items stolen from my yard and shed when I refused to hire the illegals who go door-to-door. This is common. Homes in Texas were falling apart from the Mexican bricks (they crumble) and shoddy workmanship they used to build here. You get what you pay for, simple as that. Savvy consumers demand that anyone they hire be bonded, insured, and LEGAL. Good Lord, American contractors can be shifty enough -- why would you give thousands of dollars to an outfit that hires ILLEGAL labor?! It's asking for trouble.

Regarding agriculture -- this is key. Our demand for exotic and year-round produce that's out of season is harmful and unhealthy. It requires large-scale production and labor from people who once grew crops only for their villages and their own consumption, with some left to store and trade. This has caused a host of problems from social disintegration to poor use of land and even to starvation in Africa.

Moreover, our demand for several kinds of tomatoes and such requires the labor- and time-consuming practice of employing people to hand-pick the produce. Machines could do this work faster and safer if we would just be willing to sacrifice our demand for huge variety. We need to mechanize the farms -- the cost would be high at first but the savings and safety reaped would pay for it handily.

People would be much healthier if they simply ate local produce, in season. The produce can also be canned or frozen for consumption throughout the winter. The process of growing, picking before ripe, and transporting our food thousands of miles puts the safety of our food supply in jeopardy and also provides us with inferior products.

I disagree that the immigration problems were simply "allowed" to happen. There are over a dozen LEGAL programs by which farmers, ranchers, and manufacturers can LEGALLY hire workers from other countries if they need them. These programs were created in direct response to ABUSES of illegal immigrants. However, when unrest hit the Latin American countries, we were inundated by refugees. And, this is important, MEXICO did not help us stem the flow.

No, MEXICO hustles people who enter its country from El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, etc. to the U.S.! They assist them in BREAKING OUR LAWS, along with exporting their own poor to us. Mexico is NO FRIEND to the U.S.

Moreover, companies learned it was far easier to hire illegals than it was to go through the LEGAL channels to obtain workers. The LEGAL channels make them provide proper working conditions, fair pay, eschew child labor, and PROVE that they actually need the help and cannot find American workers. I'm sorry, but anyone who supports unmitigated immigration also assists in the unfair treatment of poor workers, the lowering of wages, and the preference given to hiring people with no documentation and inferior skill over willing American workers. The abuses in this are manifold.

Mexico needs to be weaned off the American teat, as I described in other posts. It would be far less expensive and far more ethical for us to extricate ourselves from this illegal immigration nightmare, reinforce our borders, and provide more aid to Mexico in return for changing its unethical and protectionist practices. In other words, the ruling class needs a very strident wakeup kick to its collective, elitist butt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 03:12 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,287,648 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
I'm not skilled with separating out the quotes and responding, so I apologise ahead of time if I don't address all of your points.
It is ok, I thank you for reading and paying attention to my post, that's what matters.

Quote:
First off, there is nothing manufactured in Mexico that we can't buy elsewhere and, perhaps, more cheaply. The shine is off the maquiladora industry as Mexico has fallen out of favor -- other countries offer much cheaper production costs, fewer security concerns, a more reliable workforce, etc. NAFTA commitments have required that we buy from Mexico when, in many cases, that might not be in our best interests.
Point taken, yet, even though other countries offer much cheaper production costs, transportation costs is a deal breaker in many cases, many maquilas that went to China have returned to Mexico because of this and many factors.

PepsiCo Investing Up To $3B In Mexico

Investment news: Mexico received 23.230 billion USD of FDI (http://www.noruega.org.mx/Business_eng/News/investment+news.htm - broken link)

Wal-Mart de Mexico invests over US$800 million

Nafta Mexico: When we look at the importance of this border to Mexico the figures are equally impressive. Mexico has 3,000 maquiladoras, employing more than 500,000 workers; over 15% of the total employment in Mexico's manufacturing sector. Maquiladoras are by far the largest producer of foreign currency income, exceeding both the petroleum and tourism sectors in dollar revenue produced.

NAFTA good deal or bad for california and baja

Quote:
I live in Texas and we get hit with recalls and warnings every year due to safety concerns over Mexican products. They still use LEAD in their paints and such and the lead contaminates the candy, beverages, toys, etc. Children in the U.S. have suffered developmental impairments from consuming Mexican products. Google for that -- there have been many articles written about it. I won't touch Mexican products.
You have to take into account that the US government is fond of inventing all kinds of stories regarding the safety of products when they are pressed by companies in the US that are loosing the competition against foreign goods, I've consumed those products my entire life, and know people who has done the same for their entire lifes without any single thing happening to them.

Quote:
Moreover, it came out when these lead-tainted products were discovered that Mexico actually produces separately for export. The food and drinks produced for its own citizens contained HUGE levels of lead and contaminants. My God, how can they knowingly DO that to their own people?! And how can they have NO COMPUNCTION about reassuring Americans that the products they send us are made to a higher standard than what they produce for their citizens? It's horrible.
Again I live in Mexico, consume all kinds of Mexican products, so do my friends, family, and so far nothing has happened, it's just pure FUD. Canada buys as much Mexican products as the US proportionately to their population size and there has never been a complaint.

Quote:
Anyone who has had contact with illegal laborers and their work know firsthand that it may not be "cheap." I had countless items stolen from my yard and shed when I refused to hire the illegals who go door-to-door. This is common. Homes in Texas were falling apart from the Mexican bricks (they crumble) and shoddy workmanship they used to build here. You get what you pay for, simple as that. Savvy consumers demand that anyone they hire be bonded, insured, and LEGAL. Good Lord, American contractors can be shifty enough -- why would you give thousands of dollars to an outfit that hires ILLEGAL labor?! It's asking for trouble.
In this I agree with you some products made in Mexico are of poor quality (not all but some) and hiring illegal labor is opening the door for trouble, same as buying pirate products, etc yet these workers are protected and given benefits, who is to blame for this?

Quote:
Regarding agriculture -- this is key. Our demand for exotic and year-round produce that's out of season is harmful and unhealthy. It requires large-scale production and labor from people who once grew crops only for their villages and their own consumption, with some left to store and trade. This has caused a host of problems from social disintegration to poor use of land and even to starvation in Africa.

Moreover, our demand for several kinds of tomatoes and such requires the labor- and time-consuming practice of employing people to hand-pick the produce. Machines could do this work faster and safer if we would just be willing to sacrifice our demand for huge variety. We need to mechanize the farms -- the cost would be high at first but the savings and safety reaped would pay for it handily.
This is true, but Mexico's not Africa, Mexican poverty might mean the lack of some commodities such as a car, but not lack of food to eat or starvation, besides if what you said was put in practice, it would create a spiral of inflation that would wreak havoc in the already ailing American economy, prices would soar, then US trade partners wouldn't be able to afford American made products anymore, so the US dollar would have to be weakened to correct these trade unbalances, but the US dollar is the world's reserve currency, so if this happened every single country in the world would be dragged and this global crisis we are facing would be a child's play in comparison.

Quote:
People would be much healthier if they simply ate local produce, in season. The produce can also be canned or frozen for consumption throughout the winter. The process of growing, picking before ripe, and transporting our food thousands of miles puts the safety of our food supply in jeopardy and also provides us with inferior products.
I agree that things should be done on a different way, but governments don't seem to care, this means someone is benefiting from this at other's expense, yet the demand for all this continues to increase instead of decrease, so you can see how there is a codependency, and this is exactly what I stated that both countries share a dysfunctional codependent relationship, it's not the entire fault of Mexico.

Quote:
I disagree that the immigration problems were simply "allowed" to happen. There are over a dozen LEGAL programs by which farmers, ranchers, and manufacturers can LEGALLY hire workers from other countries if they need them. These programs were created in direct response to ABUSES of illegal immigrants. However, when unrest hit the Latin American countries, we were inundated by refugees. And, this is important, MEXICO did not help us stem the flow.

No, MEXICO hustles people who enter its country from El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, etc. to the U.S.! They assist them in BREAKING OUR LAWS, along with exporting their own poor to us. Mexico is NO FRIEND to the U.S.
Well actually Mexico started to require visas for Brazilian citizens, because they were #1 in illegal border crossings with the intention to work in the US.

Mexico's New Visa Requirements Mean Brazilians Will Pay US$ 25,000 to Enter the U.S. Illegally (http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/3918/54/ - broken link)

This strained Mexico/Brazil relationships but it was done by request of the US, most immigrants that come from south/central america face a really harsh time during their transit through this country, authorities, citizens, gangs take advantage of them, although some good hearted people help them and get arrested for that.

"The national human rights comission filed a complaint against the arrest and jailing of a Mexican citizen of humble origin, sentenced to 6 years of prison under charges of traficking with undocumented central america immigrants."

"The women, mother of five, abandoned by her husband is a resident of El ahorcado, small town in Queretaro, central Mexico, she was incarcerated in the female prison of San José El Alto, sentenced to six years of prison after an investigation that the Human Rights comission considers "irregular".

"They passed through my house, hungry, tired and without a single cent. They always asked me for a taco and it felt bad to deny it. That's why I shared with them the little I had", she said in an interview with the newspaper, this woman whose neighboors know as "doña Conchi".

full note (in spanish): http://www.radiolaprimerisima.com/noticias/15803

Quote:
Moreover, companies learned it was far easier to hire illegals than it was to go through the LEGAL channels to obtain workers. The LEGAL channels make them provide proper working conditions, fair pay, eschew child labor, and PROVE that they actually need the help and cannot find American workers. I'm sorry, but anyone who supports unmitigated immigration also assists in the unfair treatment of poor workers, the lowering of wages, and the preference given to hiring people with no documentation and inferior skill over willing American workers. The abuses in this are manifold.
This is what I tell you, both countries share the responsibility for Illegal immigration, the American government has allowed this to continue, offering freebies, handouts and an underground system that allows people to immigrate with relative easyness.

Quote:
Mexico needs to be weaned off the American teat, as I described in other posts. It would be far less expensive and far more ethical for us to extricate ourselves from this illegal immigration nightmare, reinforce our borders, and provide more aid to Mexico in return for changing its unethical and protectionist practices. In other words, the ruling class needs a very strident wakeup kick to its collective, elitist butt.
I agree, but then it means that the US needs to be weaned off the Mexican teat as well, like I tell you both countries benefit from this, specially the elites of both countries, they are well aware of this and let it continue at the expense of us all.

If you were fluent in spanish and could read the news in Mexico, you'd see the huge amount of changes and reforms that have been approved since Calderon started his term, they reformed the pensions system, public health system, they liberalized investment in the oil sector a bit, they made tax reforms, and more reforms are on the way, yet there is still room for improvement and much room for improvement imho, but what do we see in the other side? you can still get welfare benefits if you are an illegal in the US, the broken social security system is still abused, the border fence is just smoke and mirrors, not a single illegal employeer has been fined or arrested or anything, politicians continue to pander illegals, you can still get a driver's license, apply for a mortgage, open a bank account, etc if you are in the US ilegally, it is the only country in the world where you can do that.

Btw Mexico is not protectionist at all, this is data from the US department, yet more improvements could be done in the oil, telecommunications and energy sectors.

Mexico's trade regime is among the most open in the world, with free trade agreements with the U.S., Canada, the EU, and many other countries (44 total). Since the 1994 devaluation of the peso, successive Mexican governments have improved the country's macroeconomic fundamentals. Inflation and public sector deficits are under control, while the current account balance and public debt profile have improved. As of October 2008, Moody's, Standard & Poor's, and Fitch Ratings had all issued investment-grade ratings for Mexico's sovereign debt.

Trade
Mexico is among the world's most open economies, but it is dependent on trade with the U.S., which bought about 82% of its exports in 2007. Top U.S. exports to Mexico include electronic equipment, motor vehicle parts, and chemicals. Top Mexican exports to the U.S. include petroleum, cars, and electronic equipment. There is considerable intra-company trade.
Mexico is an active and constructive member of the World Trade Organization (WTO). It hosted the September 2003 WTO Ministerial Meeting in Cancun. The Mexican Government and many businesses support a Free Trade Area of the Americas.

Mexico's profile (11/08) US deparment of state

Last edited by Travelling fella; 03-04-2009 at 03:39 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,075 posts, read 1,771,460 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
The US is dependent on Mexico's Oil, Manufactured goods, Food, Beer, Sugar, Soft drinks, and yes cheap workers too, everybody is aware that the root of the problem regarding illegal immigration is that the US government looks the other way and doesn't do anything that is really effective to curtail illegal immigration or end benefits for her illegal population because of the dependence on this workers, the government has created a huge mess because of this, just like drug cartels grew that much in Mexico because of decades of inaction, the illegal population in the US grew that much because of decades of inaction, it might be neither right nor fair to have masses of people demanding things they aren't entitled to, but what about the pandering politicians that promise them those things? or those corporations who hire and protect them?

Because of the wage disparity between both countries, a lot of countries (including the USA) manufacture goods in Mexico, such as cars, computers, reactors, airship parts, tv's and a long etc with the intent of selling them in the American market, which has became a really lucrative business.



Point taken, yet there are some varieties of vegetables that can't be grown in the US, regarding those problems the society needs to fix, I believe you hit the nail on the spot, but what do you propose to adress and solve those addictive behaviors?



This is very true, but the US uses Mexico as much as it is used by Mexico, that's what has created such problems, the relationship needs to change, but will it change? I believe that if everything changes over time it'll change.

Now do you have any idea of the changes in Mexico? everything has changed so much in 30 years and is continuing to change as we speak, but you can't solve problems that took centuries to grow to it's present level in a couple of years, yet things are changing and very fast, Mexico is one of the most open countries in the world, so protectionism is not the problem, corruption it is though.
As a general rule I agree with most of what you post ,but, not this time. If Mexico has a relationship with the US it's pretty one sided. Cheap labor and drugs (unless you include violence) seem to be the main Exports from Mexico. Sugar, soft drinks & beer along with cheap vegggies come with another Mexican export ,e-coli and salmonella. I think We would do just Fine without another Mexican export. MS-13, Mexican Mafia, 18st. boys, and to many more gangs to list. I also don't think illegal alien flag waving protesters, Screaming La Raza, , demanding amnstey, have much to do with "pandering politicans". Kina like comparing oranges to fishing.
Blaming the gov. for the illegal problem ( and drug) is somewhat like telling a gunshot victm "It's your fault, you got in front of the bullet". You CAN solve problems it took centuries to create, all it takes is want to and TRY.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 04:20 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,287,648 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjwebbster View Post
As a general rule I agree with most of what you post ,but, not this time. If Mexico has a relationship with the US it's pretty one sided. Cheap labor and drugs (unless you include violence) seem to be the main Exports from Mexico. Sugar, soft drinks & beer along with cheap vegggies come with another Mexican export ,e-coli and salmonella. I think We would do just Fine without another Mexican export. MS-13, Mexican Mafia, 18st. boys, and to many more gangs to list. I also don't think illegal alien flag waving protesters, Screaming La Raza, , demanding amnstey, have much to do with "pandering politicans". Kina like comparing oranges to fishing.
Blaming the gov. for the illegal problem ( and drug) is somewhat like telling a gunshot victm "It's your fault, you got in front of the bullet". You CAN solve problems it took centuries to create, all it takes is want to and TRY.
It is natural and healthy to disagree, CD would be a very boring place if the only responses were I agree with what you said, LOL.

But let me tell you that sugar, soft drinks, beer, cheap veggies aren't the only exports from Mexico, a big percentage of the cars sold in the US are made in Mexico, several components used in nuclear reactors, electronic devices, airships, etc are manufactured in Mexico as well.

there have been health problems and temporary bans with products imported from the US to Mexico as well, but so far these incidents have been relatively few and isolated (in both sides of the border)

Now let me explain you why (in my opinion) pandering politicians have some responsibility with those guys demanding rights, Imagine you go illegally to a place where you are granted welfare benefits, where you can open bank accounts, get a driver's license, apply for a mortgage, have American organizations (Yes Lulac, Maldef, La raza, etc are American organizations not Mexican) telling poor, desperate and uneducated people who don't know better to march and protest for their rights, because that's how the system works, and politicians encouraging these activities and promising things that can't be granted (amnesty, more rights, etc) I'm not saying the entire blame lies on them, but they should be held accountable too, and american citizens should ask themselves, why are we the only country that gives those privileges to illegal citizens, yet we claim we are against illegal immigration, why it is that our government hasn't created a hightech fraud proof, social security system, why is it that illegal employeers are able to get with it?

I agree with you, sitting and crying about the current state of affairs won't solve them, the only way of doing it is grabbing the bull by the horns, but trust me, a lot of changes have been happening in Mexico, but the fruits of those changes will be collected over time and not overnight unfortunately.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2009, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,062 posts, read 15,852,907 times
Reputation: 3677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
It is ok, I thank you for reading and paying attention to my post, that's what matters.

Point taken, yet, even though other countries offer much cheaper production costs, transportation costs is a deal breaker in many cases, many maquilas that went to China have returned to Mexico because of this and many factors.

PepsiCo Investing Up To $3B In Mexico

Investment news: Mexico received 23.230 billion USD of FDI (http://www.noruega.org.mx/Business_eng/News/investment+news.htm - broken link)

Wal-Mart de Mexico invests over US$800 million (http://www.foodinternational.net/articles/news/1596/wal-mart-de-mexico-invests-over-us$800-million.html - broken link)

Nafta Mexico: When we look at the importance of this border to Mexico the figures are equally impressive. Mexico has 3,000 maquiladoras, employing more than 500,000 workers; over 15% of the total employment in Mexico's manufacturing sector. Maquiladoras are by far the largest producer of foreign currency income, exceeding both the petroleum and tourism sectors in dollar revenue produced.

NAFTA good deal or bad for california and baja

You have to take into account that the US government is fond of inventing all kinds of stories regarding the safety of products when they are pressed by companies in the US that are loosing the competition against foreign goods, I've consumed those products my entire life, and know people who has done the same for their entire lifes without any single thing happening to them.

Again I live in Mexico, consume all kinds of Mexican products, so do my friends, family, and so far nothing has happened, it's just pure FUD. Canada buys as much Mexican products as the US proportionately to their population size and there has never been a complaint.

In this I agree with you some products made in Mexico are of poor quality (not all but some) and hiring illegal labor is opening the door for trouble, same as buying pirate products, etc yet these workers are protected and given benefits, who is to blame for this?

This is true, but Mexico's not Africa, Mexican poverty might mean the lack of some commodities such as a car, but not lack of food to eat or starvation, besides if what you said was put in practice, it would create a spiral of inflation that would wreak havoc in the already ailing American economy, prices would soar, then US trade partners wouldn't be able to afford American made products anymore, so the US dollar would have to be weakened to correct these trade unbalances, but the US dollar is the world's reserve currency, so if this happened every single country in the world would be dragged and this global crisis we are facing would be a child's play in comparison.

I agree that things should be done on a different way, but governments don't seem to care, this means someone is benefiting from this at other's expense, yet the demand for all this continues to increase instead of decrease, so you can see how there is a codependency, and this is exactly what I stated that both countries share a dysfunctional codependent relationship, it's not the entire fault of Mexico.

Well actually Mexico started to require visas for Brazilian citizens, because they were #1 in illegal border crossings with the intention to work in the US.

Mexico's New Visa Requirements Mean Brazilians Will Pay US$ 25,000 to Enter the U.S. Illegally (http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/3918/54/ - broken link)

This strained Mexico/Brazil relationships but it was done by request of the US, most immigrants that come from south/central america face a really harsh time during their transit through this country, authorities, citizens, gangs take advantage of them, although some good hearted people help them and get arrested for that.

"The national human rights comission filed a complaint against the arrest and jailing of a Mexican citizen of humble origin, sentenced to 6 years of prison under charges of traficking with undocumented central america immigrants."

"The women, mother of five, abandoned by her husband is a resident of El ahorcado, small town in Queretaro, central Mexico, she was incarcerated in the female prison of San José El Alto, sentenced to six years of prison after an investigation that the Human Rights comission considers "irregular".

"They passed through my house, hungry, tired and without a single cent. They always asked me for a taco and it felt bad to deny it. That's why I shared with them the little I had", she said in an interview with the newspaper, this woman whose neighboors know as "doña Conchi".

full note (in spanish): Ombudsman de México defiende mujer arrestada por alimentar a indocumentados - Radio La Primerísima - La Gente - Noticias desde Managua, Nicaragua

This is what I tell you, both countries share the responsibility for Illegal immigration, the American government has allowed this to continue, offering freebies, handouts and an underground system that allows people to immigrate with relative easyness.

I agree, but then it means that the US needs to be weaned off the Mexican teat as well, like I tell you both countries benefit from this, specially the elites of both countries, they are well aware of this and let it continue at the expense of us all.

If you were fluent in spanish and could read the news in Mexico, you'd see the huge amount of changes and reforms that have been approved since Calderon started his term, they reformed the pensions system, public health system, they liberalized investment in the oil sector a bit, they made tax reforms, and more reforms are on the way, yet there is still room for improvement and much room for improvement imho, but what do we see in the other side? you can still get welfare benefits if you are an illegal in the US, the broken social security system is still abused, the border fence is just smoke and mirrors, not a single illegal employeer has been fined or arrested or anything, politicians continue to pander illegals, you can still get a driver's license, apply for a mortgage, open a bank account, etc if you are in the US ilegally, it is the only country in the world where you can do that.

Btw Mexico is not protectionist at all, this is data from the US department, yet more improvements could be done in the oil, telecommunications and energy sectors.

Mexico's trade regime is among the most open in the world, with free trade agreements with the U.S., Canada, the EU, and many other countries (44 total). Since the 1994 devaluation of the peso, successive Mexican governments have improved the country's macroeconomic fundamentals. Inflation and public sector deficits are under control, while the current account balance and public debt profile have improved. As of October 2008, Moody's, Standard & Poor's, and Fitch Ratings had all issued investment-grade ratings for Mexico's sovereign debt.

Trade
Mexico is among the world's most open economies, but it is dependent on trade with the U.S., which bought about 82% of its exports in 2007. Top U.S. exports to Mexico include electronic equipment, motor vehicle parts, and chemicals. Top Mexican exports to the U.S. include petroleum, cars, and electronic equipment. There is considerable intra-company trade.
Mexico is an active and constructive member of the World Trade Organization (WTO). It hosted the September 2003 WTO Ministerial Meeting in Cancun. The Mexican Government and many businesses support a Free Trade Area of the Americas.

Mexico's profile (11/08) US deparment of state
The only areas of the U.S. that have benefitted from NAFTA are the Border states. If you listened to the rhetoric during our presidential campaign, everyone was screaming about NAFTA's negative effects on U.S. manufacturing and the candidates were promising changes. We'll see if Obama keeps that promise. Heh, Mexicans and Canadians shouldn't get too worried.

Now, I will agree that the Border region of Texas, where I lived, saw big improvements when NAFTA was instituted. Double-digit unemployment was cut in half. However, that area still subsists on low-wage, low-skill jobs.

As per the safety of Mexican candy and such, I can only provide what I've read on the subject.

Investigation: Lead in Mexican Candy | WOAI.COM: San Antonio News

This is a huge, multi-part series:
The Orange County Register (http://www.ocregister.com/investigations/2004/lead/index.php - broken link)

You and yours can eat and drink whatever you like, of course. But tests in the U.S. have discovered there IS a problem and there have been lawsuits. The Mexican producers lost. I, for one, wouldn't let my kid touch the stuff mostly for what was in it -- who in their right mind would load their kids up with "treats" comprised of mostly salt and chili powder? It's no wonder that diabetes and high blood pressure are endemic among the Hispanic population.

Speaking of which, the U.S. has spent billions of dollars on health care and education aimed at the large percentage of Hispanic immigrants here who have uncontrolled diabetes. Many remain non-compliant and succumb to the critical complications that other populations don't encounter.

Now that I realize you're writing from Mexico, I understand your perspective a bit more, especially since I used to live on the Border and I've traveled all over Mexico, including the Yucatan. I still live in Texas but now I'm about 550 miles north of the Border and the perspectives here vary widely from the Border, as does the economy and quality of life.

What you don't understand, though, is the way we live and eat now is very different from how it was even 35 years ago, when I was a child growing up in Pennsylvania. So, while you may not believe things can change, I see how they probably will, going back to the way it used to be. Back then, most people had even a small garden and bought locally raised produce, eating what was in season. My mom and relatives froze and canned the produce to eat later. Folks wouldn't buy produce that was "shipped in" because it simply didn't appeal. And it DOESN'T taste good.

Back then, we didn't have all of these recalls, salmonella outbreaks and contamination. People are getting fed up. I saw a program on the news last weekend about people across the country planting "victory gardens" and growing their own produce, a look back at the WWII "victory gardens" that Americans planted so the crops raised could be dedicated to feeding the troops.

Moreover, our Homeland Security experts have repeatedly warned that having our food supply grown and shipped in foreign countries puts us at risk. Between that, the contamination, and the economy, there will be a shift back to the way it used to be. The well-off are demanding "organic" products, as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:55 AM.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top