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Old 03-04-2009, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,708,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Again, why is there so many more people of indigenous descent than there are in the United States if the Spanish killing of natives was "unprecedented"?

The Spanish were no angels, and forced their culture upon the natives, sometimes through cruel means. But the English didn't waste time forcing anything on them. They just slaughtered them and moved into their land.
Does that even matter outside of historical curiousity and a warning for future generations to not repeat the same mistakes?

Besides: the Aztecs to name but one pre Euro indigenous group committed their share of atrocities as well.

Bottom line: the above incidents 400-500 years ago were classic cases of the stronger subjugating or converting the weaker; it happens all the time--------and, I am not referring to just genocide, etc.
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Old 03-04-2009, 06:39 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,979 posts, read 30,245,890 times
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Maybe because most lived there? Wiki:

Scholars' estimates of the total population of the Americas before European contact vary enormously, from a low of 10 million to a high of 112 million.[7] Some authors see ideological underpinnings in this population debate. For example, Robert Royal writes that "estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with scholars who are particularly critical of Europe and/or Western civilization often favoring wildly higher figures."[8] Some scholars believe that most of the indigenous population resided in Mesoamerica and South America, with approximately 10 percent residing in North America, prior to European colonization.[9]
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Old 03-04-2009, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
608 posts, read 793,576 times
Reputation: 409
So this discussion on border control has somehow morphed into a who killed who historical argument? I'll try to break this down...

1. Border control: The US will man the borders depending on where the threats are. There's large numbers of agents near Mexico because 20 million illegals have already snuck through. Add to this drug cartells, people carrying diseases into the US, and all other issues associated with illegals (Higher crime rate, limited skills and education, etc). You don't see Canadians rushing to get into the US in large numbers.

2. Historical Animosity: Why is this who killed who argument still being thrown around? The US is a global power, Mexico is not. This results in many south of the US being jealous of the US and trying to claim that the wicked USA became strong by holding poor Mexico back. Historicaly, what has happened is done...get over it and determine your own destiny. All great (and sometimes not so great) nations have commited injustices against others. So what? It's done. Quit crying.
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Old 03-04-2009, 07:12 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,707,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Again, why is there so many more people of indigenous descent than there are in the United States if the Spanish killing of natives was "unprecedented"?

The Spanish were no angels, and forced their culture upon the natives, sometimes through cruel means. But the English didn't waste time forcing anything on them. They just slaughtered them and moved into their land.
You are aware, are you not, that the Spanish destroyed indigenous cultures OUTSIDE of Mexico right?

Apparently not....
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Old 03-04-2009, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,905,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
You are aware, are you not, that the Spanish destroyed indigenous cultures OUTSIDE of Mexico right?

Apparently not....
To what extent? Are the Spanish to blame for the nearly wiped out native American population of the present day United States?

Do you associate the Spanish with new world Hispanics who you associate with illegal immigrants?

Is that why you're arguing the inarguable?
FACT is, the abuse of the natives by the Spanish and French do not COMPARE to the extermination by the English.

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is look at the idigenous blood still flowing in all the indigenous and mestizo people in Latin America compared to the tiny native population in the United States.

I'm not even one to defend the Spaniards, but come on now. What are you trying to prove by trying to spin history?
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,708,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
To what extent? Are the Spanish to blame for the nearly wiped out native American population of the present day United States?

Do you associate the Spanish with new world Hispanics who you associate with illegal immigrants?

Is that why you're arguing the inarguable?
FACT is, the abuse of the natives by the Spanish and French do not COMPARE to the extermination by the English.

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is look at the idigenous blood still flowing in all the indigenous and mestizo people in Latin America compared to the tiny native population in the United States.

I'm not even one to defend the Spaniards, but come on now. What are you trying to prove by trying to spin history?
Even if what you are saying is true about the alleged extermination of the pre Euro indigenous peoples by the English vs. the Spanish: which I doubt very strongly; the past is the past-----------it cannot be changed.

Remember too that till ca. 1920 we had much greater numbers of mostly legal immigrants come to the USA. Argentina which is 97% White obviously had similar experiences.

Final point: till very recently; Mexican were breeders---------try ca. 7 children per woman on average back in the 1960's.
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:41 PM
 
Location: somewhere
4,264 posts, read 7,956,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pintada Kid View Post
We have over 20 000 agents guarding our 2000 mile southern border plus a fence with Mexico but we have only 900 agents guarding our 4000 mile border with Canada that is a Haven for Muslim Terrorist and a Hop, Skip and a Jump to some of our biggest cities like N.Y. Seattle, Chicago, Washington D.C.Detroit etc. el pintada kid

Just a small correction for you, we have about 16,000 agents on our southern border and 2000 on the northern border at this time. I tend to trust the person who gave me this info. Okay now back to the disagreement that I interrupted, just wanted to make sure the correct numbers were out there.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:18 PM
 
Location: center of N.M.
775 posts, read 2,316,094 times
Reputation: 478
Default Thanks for the Correction

Thanks for the correction On my numbers of a couple of years ago i guess the Great Wall of Mexico helped to lower the number of Agents there. I would think that in a few years they will be Ramping the wall with their Vehicles and with small portable torches be able to Squeeze through and tunnels under the Wall hopefully the Wildlife can squeeze through also. el pintada kid
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:59 PM
 
Location: somewhere
4,264 posts, read 7,956,816 times
Reputation: 3129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pintada Kid View Post
Thanks for the correction On my numbers of a couple of years ago i guess the Great Wall of Mexico helped to lower the number of Agents there. I would think that in a few years they will be Ramping the wall with their Vehicles and with small portable torches be able to Squeeze through and tunnels under the Wall hopefully the Wildlife can squeeze through also. el pintada kid
It is actually just a fence and it is not all along the southern border just in spots. And if I am not mistaken our numbers on the southern border have never reached 20,000, it maybe the goal but it has not reached that yet. The numbers at this time are probably the highest they have ever been. It is always interesting to me to read what people think the wall is, I know in one area in AZ the fence goes through the town then abruptly stops outside the town, in the boothill of NM there is no fence at all.

If the news reports out of CA are to believed they have already found tunnels used by the illegals.
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,708,006 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pintada Kid View Post
Thanks for the correction On my numbers of a couple of years ago i guess the Great Wall of Mexico helped to lower the number of Agents there. I would think that in a few years they will be Ramping the wall with their Vehicles and with small portable torches be able to Squeeze through and tunnels under the Wall hopefully the Wildlife can squeeze through also. el pintada kid
Any way you spin it: the cold reality is our growing fortifications are keeping the illegal aliens and drug runners out of the USA for the most part.
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