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Old 03-05-2009, 09:20 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,698,040 times
Reputation: 3010

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Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
To what extent? Are the Spanish to blame for the nearly wiped out native American population of the present day United States?

Do you associate the Spanish with new world Hispanics who you associate with illegal immigrants?

Is that why you're arguing the inarguable?
FACT is, the abuse of the natives by the Spanish and French do not COMPARE to the extermination by the English.

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is look at the idigenous blood still flowing in all the indigenous and mestizo people in Latin America compared to the tiny native population in the United States.

I'm not even one to defend the Spaniards, but come on now. What are you trying to prove by trying to spin history?
I'm not spinning history. I am well versed on the subject of pre and post contact America.

You are the one who seems to have a skewed view of historical events.

Just for the record, I never said that the English were exculpable. I was discussing the Spanish subjugation of the Pueblo societies as well as the Native Americans that once populated present day Florida. Initial Spanish contact with indigenous cultures in the Southwest was brutal with the intention of converting, colonizing, and enslaving Native populations. Pick up any Renaissance history book--the brutality and cruelty of the Spaniards is well documented. The Spanish got to the New World in 1517. The first English colony--Roanoke wasn't established until 1586.

Unlike the Spanish, the French, Dutch and English managed to live in relative peace with Native Americans in the first years after initial contact, establishing flourishing trade networks and in many instances, establishing kinship relations as well. However, competition for dwindling resources (beaver pelts, territory, etc.) brought extended periods of war between competing tribes, many of whom were backed by the firepower of the French, English, or Dutch, each pushing their respective trading partners to provide more trade goods.

Eventually, the changes Europeans wrought upon the New World, the heretofore unforseen concept of land ownership, the clearing of forests for agriculture and fuel, as well as the effect of non-indigenous domesticated animals and plants, forced Native Americans to abandon the ways in which they once related to their environment as encroaching settlers pushed Native Americans onto a smaller and much less productive landscape.

The push to extermination in the present day U.S. was a slower, but no less complete process in the East than it was in the southwest. You insist upon looking to Meso and South America as proof that the Spanish were somehow less involved in the annihilation of indigenous peoples than the English. Consider that 80% of the population of modern day Mexico is Mestizo--this proves my point. These weren't love matches. The Spanish subjugated the Native populations and raped the women. If you doubt this, might I suggest that you read the first hand account of Spanish interaction with native Mesoamerican people written by Fra. Bernardino de Sahagun. It's quite enlightening regarding the Spanish conquest of Mesoamerica.

However, considering that the focus of my post was the Spanish contact with the Puebloan peoples of the southwest--your apples to oranges approach doesn't really hold up.

When the Spanish encountered the Hohokam, the Mogollon, and the Ancient Pueblo Peoples (the Anasazi) these people numbered in the millions-spread out over modern day Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Northwestern Texas. By the time the Spanish completed their colonization efforts, they numbered in the mere tens of thousands. Today their number has grown to a staggering 35,000--not much of a comeback I'd say. I'm not even taking into consideration the decimation of the Florida tribes or the subjugation of the Native tribes in California.

I'd say that the Spanish were equally as destructive as the English. Neither European power gets to take a pass in the eradication of indigenous peoples in North America.
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:26 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,630,805 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
I'm not spinning history. I am well versed on the subject of pre and post contact America.

You are the one who seems to have a skewed view of historical events.

Just for the record, I never said that the English were exculpable. I was discussing the Spanish subjugation of the Pueblo societies as well as the Native Americans that once populated present day Florida. Initial Spanish contact with indigenous cultures in the Southwest was brutal with the intention of converting, colonizing, and enslaving Native populations. Pick up any Renaissance history book--the brutality and cruelty of the Spaniards is well documented. The Spanish got to the New World in 1517. The first English colony--Roanoke wasn't established until 1586.

Unlike the Spanish, the French, Dutch and English managed to live in relative peace with Native Americans in the first years after initial contact, establishing flourishing trade networks and in many instances, establishing kinship relations as well. However, competition for dwindling resources (beaver pelts, territory, etc.) brought extended periods of war between competing tribes, many of whom were backed by the firepower of the French, English, or Dutch, each pushing their respective trading partners to provide more trade goods.

Eventually, the changes Europeans wrought upon the New World, the heretofore unforseen concept of land ownership, the clearing of forests for agriculture and fuel, as well as the effect of non-indigenous domesticated animals and plants, forced Native Americans to abandon the ways in which they once related to their environment as encroaching settlers pushed Native Americans onto a smaller and much less productive landscape.

The push to extermination in the present day U.S. was a slower, but no less complete process in the East than it was in the southwest. You insist upon looking to Meso and South America as proof that the Spanish were somehow less involved in the annihilation of indigenous peoples than the English. Consider that 80% of the population of modern day Mexico is Mestizo--this proves my point. These weren't love matches. The Spanish subjugated the Native populations and raped the women. If you doubt this, might I suggest that you read the first hand account of Spanish interaction with native Mesoamerican people written by Fra. Bernardino de Sahagun. It's quite enlightening regarding the Spanish conquest of Mesoamerica.

However, considering that the focus of my post was the Spanish contact with the Puebloan peoples of the southwest--your apples to oranges approach doesn't really hold up.

When the Spanish encountered the Hohokam, the Mogollon, and the Ancient Pueblo Peoples (the Anasazi) these people numbered in the millions-spread out over modern day Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Northwestern Texas. By the time the Spanish completed their colonization efforts, they numbered in the mere tens of thousands. Today their number has grown to a staggering 35,000--not much of a comeback I'd say. I'm not even taking into consideration the decimation of the Florida tribes or the subjugation of the Native tribes in California.

I'd say that the Spanish were equally as destructive as the English. Neither European power gets to take a pass in the eradication of indigenous peoples in North America.
Unable to 'rep' you. Terrific post, as usual....lots of info, worth a study. But I'm afraid it's WAY over our heads..so just give us the bottom line here..

Are you for the GOOD GUYS, or the BAD GUYS??.....short, simple sentences would be appreciated. We want an EMOTIONAL FREE-FOR ALL, or maybe a good SHOUTING MATCH.......but not a college course, if you please..
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:28 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,698,040 times
Reputation: 3010
Oh okay.

The good guys, of course.
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:32 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,868 posts, read 30,138,774 times
Reputation: 17722
Don't forget that the Spanish introduced just as many new diseases as any other traveler.

Very nice writeup Kele!
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,665,827 times
Reputation: 3785
And to run with Kele's ball further: being that virtually all Puerto Ricans have either White Spanish or Black African DNA on their collective fathers' side but their maternal DNA usually traces from the Taino Indians-----------I can safely say there was a lot of rape going on since virtually all of the Taino Indian men died (or were murdered).
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:23 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,868 posts, read 30,138,774 times
Reputation: 17722
I'm just glad that my great grandpa was a good looking Apache. Genetic you know
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,665,827 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
I'm just glad that my great grandpa was a good looking Apache. Genetic you know
Judging by Kele's pic: her great grandparent Apache must have been good looking as well

(and why do I get the feeling that Kele may 'crown' me now )
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:46 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,868 posts, read 30,138,774 times
Reputation: 17722
Where is that pic? I need it for ........you know..........checking the family tree

Ya, that's it, the tree.
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,665,827 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Where is that pic? I need it for ........you know..........checking the family tree

Ya, that's it, the tree.
Kele's Profile here
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:10 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,868 posts, read 30,138,774 times
Reputation: 17722
Who's the Paul Bunion (sp) dude Big as a house
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