Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Zacatecana, you have beautifully illustrated that we can disagree and engage in intelligent discourse. Thank you!
I will not refute the fact that there are immigrants who make every effort to assimilate, and have a sincere appreciation for the vast opportunities U.S. citizenship affords. Sadly, today, they are the exception. Being an “American” no longer requires allegiance or assimilation, and IMO, massive illegal immigration has been the primary catalyst for this change in attitude.
Our government and corporations have coddled illegal aliens, thereby, empowering them. In essence, they have legitimized them by ignoring their illegal presence, and by vilifying all opposition. Most notably, our government has shamefully permitted the blatant raping of the 14th Amendment. Consequently, illegal aliens consider themselves entitled to a piece of the pie, without being required to play by the rules -- never mind the notion of assimilation. This has been the impetus for the lion’s share of outrage among U.S. citizens, and is understandably a huge source of resentment, and yes, even hatred.
You are obviously associated with immigrants who value their citizenship, and sincerely want to be contributing members of our society. I applaud them. However, illegal aliens are not immigrants; and their children, be they U.S.-born or otherwise, tend to exhibit the same sense of entitlement and arrogance as their parents. Studies have shown that children of illegals require ESL classes even at the high school level, including those brought here as children or born in this country. That is a far cry from assimilation.
I wholeheartedly agree with both fastfilm and macmeal. Massive illegal immigration has transformed our nation from a melting pot comprised of various subcultures, but one predominant “American” culture; to a nation fraught with divisiveness and factionalism. I prefer the pre-illegal invasion America. THAT America was progressing toward something we could all enjoy.
This segregation type did take place in the Napa Valley in California, as told to me by my Caucasian friends who saw it first hand. I obviously did not experience it since I was not born yet.
You are also right about the "push" toward assimilation of the past generation of Mexican Americans. I have friends who said were even spanked on the hand by the teachers when they were heard speaking a word in Spanish. Teachers even held parent meetings to let parents know that speaking in Spanish was not tolerated and they should do the same at home. If you read the book Hunger for Memory by Richard Rodriguez, he talks about this. He explains that learning english and making it his only language of use made him sucessful in this country. However, he was not able to communicate with his grandmother and the language of home...memories, family, etc...was lost. In my opinion that is very sad. There is no reason why people should give up their cultural identity. It is very possible to keep one's cultural identity and still assimilate.
I have to agree with antialphabet. I love my America today. Even with all the issues of descrimination, prejudice, etc. I see far more interracial marriages and bicultural/biracial children now then ever before. Even with all the hate groups we have today...at least we are talking about it now where as before, it was kept...hush. Even when America today has a big, huge race trauma, it is much better because at least everyone can exercise their right to freedom of speech.
With all honesty I dont think the children of these immigrants have been given a fair chance. I came from that background. In my home we only spoke in Spanish. We turned to the Spanish TV channels most of the time, except cartoons...LOL. We listened and danced to regional Mexican music. Most of us, were in a sense only accepted by people of our kind, despite the fact that I did speak English. Looking back to those that were around me, all are bilingual and work in settings where they are required to be assimulated. Most all, dont like going to Mexico and see the U.S. as their only home. Some were very happy to enroll and be a part of the service.
Looking at this new generation, the children of immigrants DO speak english as well as their home language, DO love this country...it is a misconception. Many I have seen go to Mexico and do the opposite, they show off their Americanism. It is quite interesting, I have to say. I hear the locals in Mexico complaining of these children who are Mexican and dont know what it is to be Mexican... Many have served in Desert Storm...Kuwait, Afghanistan and now Iraq. They are very patriotic and American, in my opinion. As a friend of mine put it, "The only thing that is left for me to be complete is to be certain that I will not be separated from my family. I am American as can be." If you have looked at recent studies as to why whites, blacks and Latinos enroll in the service you will find that whites do it for the adventure, blacks enroll for additional grants toward education and Latinos do it for honor and patriotism. This is not to say that these characteristics are not seen in others but that the overwhelming majority are with that particular ethnic group.
As you put it, most immigrants back then stayed as opposed to those that left by a big margin. I dont see a difference now...they want to stay. Many over time (statistics show within one generation) assimilate. I know countless immigrants of various ethnicities ( Mexican, Salvadorean, African, Dominican, Brazilian, and even Asians) who have assimilated and dont see their country of origin as their home. They dont forget their past and they are proud of whom they are, love this country, despite the prejudice they have experienced. I have a friend who's parents immigrated here from Nigeria during the time of segregation. They endured all descrimination due to their color and stayed. Sometimes there are other factors involved.
All I can say is that today, I have friends of all ethnicities. My Mexican friends of first generation are marrying other ethnicities. They have all assimilated and all love this country. They consider themeselves to be very lucky to be born in this country. I have been to the Black Baptist churches. In the last three years, I have been attending a protestant christian predominately white church. Would it have been possible for me to set foot in this church during the time of segregation? I dont think so. BTW, assimilation when it comes to religion is a major one, in that sense, we are all ready assimilated. I feel honored to be an American in this time in history where we have an African American president. Which BTW, we as Latinos and people of color, do owe a lot to African Americans for opening the path to civil rights.
L.A. county (a county which majority are Mexican or of Mexican ancestry) in 1990, intermarriage occured five times the national average. Out of that number, 2/3 were Latinos. In 1997, 2/3 multiethnic/multiracial births involved a Latino parent. I call this assimilation.
macmeal, have faith in the people. Unity WILL happen and we have come so far. It really should not matter what side of the immigration issue you, I or anyone else for that matter is on. We all have the right to fight for what we believe. This race issue...WILL cease...The minute people stop looking at their differences and focus on their similarities. The more people intermarry with other ethnicities the faster it will happen. The idea of a civil war occuring over this immigration issue is really silly...
EXCELLENT post, Zacatecana!
I agree with you completely!
I've been saying this for a while, I'm glad you're respected enough to get that message out, where when I said it, I was attacked for a bunch of stuff I wasn't saying at all.
But I too see a far more integrated society than ever in America's history. People bring up the same old story about neighbors, people bring up theories with little to back them, but what you and I see is reality.
As the older generations passes, its up to the newer generations to really change how we get a long as people.
I disagree with you that to make it work, people have to change themselves....I don't think we even need to do that(it'd be nice though).
It's going to happen organically, kicked off by all the changes of the last few decades.
The next generations of children are going to be growing up in a much different environment as far as our society. A much better one. I honestly believe race is becoming less of an issue with every new generation.
I look forward to seeing how integrated our society is becoming. How there is no dominant group, but people are finding common ground.
I think they are wrong in saying your optimism is a pipe dream.
I think it's very much reality.
There's always going to be idiots out there, and ugly stuff happening because of them, but the good will outweigh the bad. Someday people will learn to stop judging groups of people based on a few. Maybe they won't learn to stop, but I think their children will never learn how to.
anti, the ugly stuff, as you term it above, is on the increase in Los Angeles. We had a few decades of genuine social progress here after the mid-1960's epiphany of the Watts riots fomented philosophical rebooting amongst both the populace and the politicians -the Bradley years- but that disappeared after the mid-1980's amnesty led to our present morass of 200 illegals entering daily. An overtaxed city overburdened with resentful, antagonistic, undereducated factionalists from other countries, on the take for social services is not the recipe for a productive, integrated American society.
Rather, these indisputable facts are the organic changes throughout the decades to which you refer. No sane person should want any group to become dominant over mainstream American culture, which embraces all others but which overall encompasses agreed upon democratic ideals as well as peripheral fashions and mores. Fairness, equality, and tolerance remain the American hallmarks toward which we strive and progress. How do you think we finally got rid of segregation? Through the hard work of citizens steeped in the real gruntwork of being an American citizen and trying to change things for the better for ALL (not just your own personal ethnic background/minority/majority.)
The issue today happily is not race, but the new foreign culture-centricism espoused in some unbelievably provincial enclaves. One doesn't find all signage in Swedish or Polish in the upper Midwest, despite a preponderance of that ancestral background, or large swathes of their major cities wherein little English is understood or spoken (as one does in L.A.) Pride in ancestral background does not demand that every person in the U.S. must also speak Italian, German, Japanese, Kiswahili or Gaelic. The melting pot implied in our "E Pluribus Unum" motto should underscore that we all relate to one another as Americans first, communicating to folks from all part of the globe in our lingua franca, English, as the American experiment unduplicated elsewhere. National pride for all Americans, then retire to specific family heritage gatherings.
Naturalized citizens are amongst our finest citizens. They've already proven same in their quest to abide by our laws and embrace this nation. Generation-to-generation diehard, non-assimilating separatists from foreign countries never can be. They don't care not a whit about anyone outside their own tribe from whatever foreign locale. And that's what increasingly I live amongst here, the next generation of whom you write. There are more gangs incubated by foreign nationals here, not less. You can verify with police records.
Many of the cultures of the foreign points of emigration are indeed incompatible with American culture, both political and philosophical. Sharia cultures worldwide believe that someone like me, an American, female, professional photographer who loves her pet animals, should be put to death for my independence from males, my representational art and my harboring unclean animals. What if that represented the majority in Los Angeles due to illegal immigration?
Also, I suspect you are not in compliance with zacatecana's thoughts completely. Because people from foreign cultures here have been so unfailingly, personally mean-spirited, non-understanding, impolite and destructive to our quality of life here, we are leaving our home of five decades forever as soon as my husband retires (hopefully coinciding with a slight housing rebound.) IMHO the difference between zacatena and yourself would be that this poster might well feel saddened that someone like me who has tried to help everyone around me, whether in daily life or neighborhood activism, is forced out of my American home by non-Americans. You, on the other hand, secretly will be cheering for the prospect of one less outspoken gringo.
The issue today happily is not race, but the new foreign culture-centricism espoused in some unbelievably provincial enclaves. One doesn't find all signage in Swedish or Polish in the upper Midwest, despite a preponderance of that ancestral background, or large swathes of their major cities wherein little English is understood or spoken (as one does in L.A.) Pride in ancestral background does not demand that every person in the U.S. must also speak Italian, German, Japanese, Kiswahili or Gaelic. The melting pot implied in our "E Pluribus Unum" motto should underscore that we all relate to one another as Americans first, communicating to folks from all part of the globe in our lingua franca, English, as the American experiment unduplicated elsewhere. National pride for all Americans, then retire to specific family heritage gatherings.
Many of the cultures of the foreign points of emigration are indeed incompatible with American culture, both political and philosophical. Sharia cultures worldwide believe that someone like me, an American, female, professional photographer who loves her pet animals, should be put to death for my independence from males, my representational art and my harboring unclean animals. What if that represented the majority in Los Angeles due to illegal immigration?
Also, I suspect you are not in compliance with zacatecana's thoughts completely. Because people from foreign cultures here have been so unfailingly, personally mean-spirited, non-understanding, impolite and destructive to our quality of life here, we are leaving our home of five decades forever as soon as my husband retires (hopefully coinciding with a slight housing rebound.) IMHO the difference between zacatena and yourself would be that this poster might well feel saddened that someone like me who has tried to help everyone around me, whether in daily life or neighborhood activism, is forced out of my American home by non-Americans. You, on the other hand, secretly will be cheering for the prospect of one less outspoken gringo.
Glad YOU said this and not I. You're right on target...as I've been telling folks for months "It's not the RACE, 'STUPID'...it's the CULTURE' "
If you think the "Home Depot laborers in the parking lot" thread is controversial, wait until we go REALLY multicultural....the 'illegals in the parking lot' will seem like a fond memory.
Only the most sheltered and provincial person would entertain thoughts of how "neat" it would be if we ALL just WENT MULTICULTURAL. Life isn't Disneyland, and cultures go WAY beyond 'exciting' things like 'yummy foods' and 'intersting music', and 'other viewpoints'. Cultures are about RIGHT vs WRONG, and WOMAN vs MAN....and CITIZEN vs COUNTRY....and NEIGHBOR vs NEIGHBOR. These things aren't 'neat differences' or 'exciting'..they're potentially DEADLY POINTS of CONFLICT. Ask the folks in Yugoslavia.
Cultures with extreme differences are fine, across oceans or borders. They are NOT fine, across streets or backyard fences. Anyone who doesn't 'get' this has been watching too much Disney.
What's the FIRST STEP in learning the very benevolent steps toward adopting the VERY inclusive and flexible American culture? Simple. Apply, and immigrate, legally. That's a good start.
Glad YOU said this and not I. You're right on target...as I've been telling folks for months "It's not the RACE, 'STUPID'...it's the CULTURE' "
If you think the "Home Depot laborers in the parking lot" thread is controversial, wait until we go REALLY multicultural....the 'illegals in the parking lot' will seem like a fond memory.
Only the most sheltered and provincial person would entertain thoughts of how "neat" it would be if we ALL just WENT MULTICULTURAL. Life isn't Disneyland, and cultures go WAY beyond 'exciting' things like 'yummy foods' and 'intersting music', and 'other viewpoints'. Cultures are about RIGHT vs WRONG, and WOMAN vs MAN....and CITIZEN vs COUNTRY....and NEIGHBOR vs NEIGHBOR. These things aren't 'neat differences' or 'exciting'..they're potentially DEADLY POINTS of CONFLICT. Ask the folks in Yugoslavia.
Cultures with extreme differences are fine, across oceans or borders. They are NOT fine, across streets or backyard fences. Anyone who doesn't 'get' this has been watching too much Disney.
What's the FIRST STEP in learning the very benevolent steps toward adopting the VERY inclusive and flexible American culture? Simple. Apply, and immigrate, legally. That's a good start.
And thank you for plainspeaking here.
There are as many extreme conflicts as there are nuisance ones, such as the foreign national who bought a fine, purebred German Shepherd puppy from someone who should have been more circumspect than pc, whereupon the puppy was instantly slaughtered by the foreign national who, when arrested for animal cruelty claimed he "had" to in order to "cure" a family member. This is not an urban legend, but a real California case. What if he hadn't had the money and had eyed your own pet from across the multicultural fence?
And my apologies to this poster for misspelling zacatecana in my previous post. Furthermore, my take on Robert Rodriguez, whom I've photographed and whom I admire, is that he is respected foremost for exactly what he wanted to become and succeeded in being, an American film director (and a mega-creative talent at that.) That he utilizes his ancestral background to give him distinction is icing on the cake.
There are as many extreme conflicts as there are nuisance ones, such as the foreign national who bought a fine, purebred German Shepherd puppy from someone who should have been more circumspect than pc, whereupon the puppy was instantly slaughtered by the foreign national who, when arrested for animal cruelty claimed he "had" to in order to "cure" a family member. This is not an urban legend, but a real California case. What if he hadn't had the money and had eyed your own pet from across the multicultural fence?
.
Agreed. In fact, this is SUCH an obvious point that only the most convoluted PC 'contortions' prevent it from being just 'common sense'. So convinced am I of this fact (that cultures AREN'T compatible; can NOT exist indefinitely, side-by-side, on an 'equal footing', and WILL, sooner or later, "clash") that I'll make this offer to ANYONE who's intersted:
You give ME an example of THREE countries...(any three you wish) whose cultures, in YOUR opinion, we should 'adopt' here in the US. ANY COUNTRIES YOU LIKE...(I'm assuming they'll be 'non-White' countries, as we CERTAINLY already have enough 'white things' here)...but as I said, pick ANY three countries you like. WHY should we adopt their cultures here?..WHAT do their cultures 'offer' us that we don't ALREADY have?...and what, if ANY, reservations should we have about any possible 'conflicts' with OUR culture, resulting from introducing theirs?
When you've done THAT, it's MY turn...I'm going to pick three countries that I DO NOT think should have their cultures 'adopted' here. I'm going to cite the reasons why I think these cultures are incompatible with a free society, and hostile and run counter to OUR ideals of freedom and equality. I'm going to be very specific, and I'm not going to suggest we exclude "people"..only CULTURES.
NOW....as a final reminder..remember, when YOU make the case for your three GOOD countries, and why you think their cultures would be a GOOD addition (or replacement) for our own, I'm going to remind you, that in the interest of MULTICULTURALISM, MY three countries, and their cultures, deserve every bit of credibility and acceptance as YOUR three countries...right? That's multiculturalism, as I understand it...'your' countries and cultures of choice, are no better than 'MY' three choices...because ALL cultures are equally 'good', and morally and ethically equivalent...right?
(No, I DON'T believe this..but if I believed in 'multiculturalism', I'd have to, wouldn't I ?)
Waiting for a response, and I promise a sincere reply.
Thank you fastfilm, macmeal, Benicar and antialphabet for your replies and your compliments.
I will try to answer all your comments as much as I can. If I cant today, I will next week.
First off, I am aware of the situation in Los Angeles as I have family living there and I also worked at a prison where the inmates (black and Latino) would dominate and run the streets of L.A. However, as I speak to my sister, aside from L.A. having many businesses that cater to foreign cultures, she does not encounter big racial divisions and problems in her every day life. Sure there are situations where people have their own stereotypes and prejudgments of a particular group. Who doesnt? No one is exempt of this.
I'm sorry that you feel offended that people speak a different language in the streets that is not English. America has now become multiethnic/multicultural. I think that we do need to maintain a common language and respect our national language. How else will we be able to understand each other? However, aside from work and business, in our personal lives, we should respect each other's preference. I think that too much emphasis is placed on Mexican Americans when it comes to speaking Spanish. My bestfriend is engaged to a Philipino. When his mother calls him, he will talk in Tagalo eventhough she is a Real Estate agent and understands English perfectly. I have a friend from Nigeria who, everytime he gets on the phone talks in Ibu (tribal language) eventhough the national language Nigeria is English. Just yesterday, I was in line to pay at a store, there were two women behind me talking in a very exotic language. I could not recognize the language, sometimes if there is some latin, I can tell but this time I could not. I asked and she said it was Arab. My coworker is from India and when she gets on the phone she speaks her language eventhough English is one of India's official languages. When looking at the big picture, America has become very MULTILINGUAL and I do believe that most people have become tolenrant to other languages. It does not bother me unless I am in the group and their is a foreign language being spoken.
This is a new generation in which there are many new immigrants from around the world. So the issue of multicultural, multilingual and multiethnic becomes a problem when trying to understand each other. That is why English is so important. It is the language that brings all of us together. I dont think there is a push toward non-assimilation but rather a push toward not forgetting one's roots while at the same time assimilating. A friend of mine is of German ancestry. When her family moved here from Germany, they immediately shut down their entire culture for fear and shame of the atrocities against Jews. As she grows older, she feels like a part of her is missing. I also met a lady with Irish ancestry who knew nothing of her past and culture. Intrigued by it, she took a trip to Ireland where she felt this sense of belonging. She said she cried for days because she felt such a rich culture was taken away from her. She felt robbed. I too love my culture. It is very rich, although, I dont place it above or below the American culture. I think I would feel empty if it were stripped away from me.
I commend you for being a Neighborhood Watch! We need more people like you. However, it seemed to me that you were pointing vandalism, animal cruelty, domestic violence on foreign cultures. I cant help to think that it was directed at Mexicans or Mexican Americans. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I also cant help to think that the majority of the population in your neighborhood is predominately of Mexican ancestry and you have formed stereotypes of them. You mentioned vandalism. I grew up in a town predominately Mexican, the next town over was predominately Caucasian. Both towns had the same amount of vandalism and trash. As a matter of fact, there were much more homeless people in the Caucasian town than there was in the Mexican town. There was equal amount of graffiti on both sides. I have worked in various areas of health and human services. In all the time I have worked in a mental hospital I saw at least 5 cases where the patient felt relief when killing animals. In all the cases, it was a Caucasian. Would it be okay for me to judge all Caucasians for the few that I saw coming in through the hospital? No. Anyone aquainted with Mexican culture knows that killing animals for healing purposes is not part of our mainstream culture. There is no denial that there are some subcultures in Mexico that still live by their tribal ways and this case you mentioned may be one of them. What I do know is that this person clearly knew that this dog was not his property and should not have taken the dog. That alone makes him guilty and should pay for the consequences. It is however unfair to generalize this to an entire culture. As far as domestic violence is concerned, I have been a domestic violence and rape counselor for a number of years now. I did it for pay at first, now I just volunteer and do it in my spare time. As a DV counselor, I can tell you that abuse all around the world and in this nation is done mostly from males toward females and 1 out of 3 will experience this during their lifetime. Domestic violence abuse does not descriminate age, gender, race, socio-economic background...etc. Domestic Violence is the same across the board when it comes to race and ethnicity. You can look at the statistics from the National Domestic Violence Hotline website. This means, it is no much higher in a Hispanic family than it is in a Caucasian family or a Black family. As per your comment regarding the person who made a mistake with your neighbor's ethnicity...Philipinos always approach me talking in Tagalo. It doesnt bother me because in the process, I have made many Philipino friends.
I do appreciate your book recommendation of "Mexifornia". I will look for it and read it. No worries about misspelling my user name. I did not notice it.
We may not be comfortable with all of our cultural differences. However, our new generation will be born into a multicultural environment and I know we will learn to get along with each other better. As I told macmeal, have faith. It is just a matter of time before things get better.
You mentioned the book by Richard Rodriguez and how he is the standard American sucess story. Yes, he is and I applaude his sucess and victory. However, I also do feel sad that he lost his language and along with that his connection to family, culture, home, ability to communicate the scent of ethnic food, etc. There is was no need for this. He obviously had the intellect to write as profound and eloquently as he did, retaining his native language would not have impede this.
I also do agree with you that he had the respect of American Journalism. No doubt, however the give and take, to me, would have been his contless contributions to the communities and American society in general. I vaguely remember the story of the kids in the new library. I think I have read the article but I should really read it again. It is interesting the dynamics between children of both ethnicities.
macmeal, please enlighten me with those deadly points of conflict from people in Yugoslavia. As someone with a mixed race background, I'm sure there were many conflicts but clearly we survived it. That is how I see America. Some will mix, others will not but in the end, we will all be the same. So please share...
As far as your request to name three countries that deserve to be here...I would not entertain that competition. It's not a matter of who does and who doesnt deserve to be here. There is no excuse to enter a country illegaly. However, our country has a double standard and we all know this.
Benicar and antialphabet, I have not ignored your posts. Will be back to reply to them.
Yes, lets toast to a mature America! A multiethnic America!
You mentioned the book by Richard Rodriguez and how he is the standard American sucess story. Yes, he is and I applaude his sucess and victory. However, I also do feel sad that he lost his language and along with that his connection to family, culture, home, ability to communicate the scent of ethnic food, etc. There is was no need for this. He obviously had the intellect to write as profound and eloquently as he did, retaining his native language would not have impede this.
I also do agree with you that he had the respect of American Journalism. No doubt, however the give and take, to me, would have been his contless contributions to the communities and American society in general. I vaguely remember the story of the kids in the new library. I think I have read the article but I should really read it again. It is interesting the dynamics between children of both ethnicities.
macmeal, please enlighten me with those deadly points of conflict from people in Yugoslavia. As someone with a mixed race background, I'm sure there were many conflicts but clearly we survived it. That is how I see America. Some will mix, others will not but in the end, we will all be the same. So please share...
As far as your request to name three countries that deserve to be here...I would not entertain that competition. It's not a matter of who does and who doesnt deserve to be here. There is no excuse to enter a country illegaly. However, our country has a double standard and we all know this.
Benicar and antialphabet, I have not ignored your posts. Will be back to reply to them.
Yes, lets toast to a mature America! A multiethnic America!
Nice to hear from you. My point about Rodriguez was that he was able to put the "old" behind him, and celebrate his adopted culture. Why he had to completely lose the language, or a connection with the food, I never understood...but he ALSO apparently lost the 'negative' cultural traits that mark the poor, landless Mexican 'peon', and keep him in bondage, and adopt the attitude of the American ideal, which is "anything is possible, if you try". That is a cultural attribute missing in most of the Third World's poor (if it WASN'T missing, they'd be able to solve their OWN poverty, without having to leave). I've talked to MANY MANY immigrants, legal and illegal, Mexicans as well as Europeans, Asians, etc...and the one thing they ALL get around to mentioning is the "freedom to choose" enjoyed in America, by almost EVERYONE, that's mostly missing back home. There, in MOST of the world, if your parents were 'shoemakers', you'll probably be a shoemaker, too. Here, ANYBODY can theoretically be ANYTHING..regardless of his 'station in life'. I've actually HEARD Mexican immigrant friends scold their kids (especially their daughters) for 'aiming too high'...(not ALL of them..but a good number)...and while it's not my place to interfere, I look at this as a holdover to the "old country" where people "knew their place". This may be changing, but I've heard it a number of times.
My frequent "Yugoslavia" references are in regard to that country's being at one time, a REASONABLY well-educated, urbane, sophisticated country..(It was by NO means 'primitive'...and not too 'poor', either). Yugoslavia's problems were its strong sense of 'tribal loyalty' among Serbs, Croats, and Muslims....and its rather weak sense of being 'Yugoslavian'. When the hard-nosed Tito died, (the strongman who'd kept them 'focused' for decades) old ethnic tensions arose and turned violent. These people weren't invaded, or conquered by outsiders...they destroyed THEMSELVES,,(AND their country), because they just couldn't get along with the 'cultures' of their next-door neighbors. Muslims in some ways fared WORST..for these were 'ethnic locals', no different from their neighbors...but whose ancestors had 'betrayed' their neighbors centuries ago, and sided with the invading Turks, and converted to Islam. Even though generations have gone by, these Muslims are still hated as 'turncoats' by the Orthodox Serbs and the Catholic Croats. CULTURE is what caused the disintegration of Yugoslavia, and CULTURE is what's fueling most of our "illegal" debate on this forum...it pits Hispanic against Hispanic, and 'non-Hispanic' against Hispanic, all in a misguided belief that if you're Hispanic, you SHOULD support illegals, because THEY'RE Hispanics, TOO. I hear this in my own family, about how they're 'scolded' at work, by BOTH sides in the issue.
Ironically, right here in Southern Cal, Serbs AND Croats get along quite well, attending many of the same social functions. There are a large number of EACH in San Pedro (LA Harbor area). Why do they get along HERE, and not back HOME? Apparently, because the folks in San Pedro don't see themselves as "Serbs" or "Croats", but as "Americans".
Hispanics who see themselves as 'Americans' are helping (along with the rest of us), to make us a unified, forward-thinking society..Hispanics who see themselves as being more "brothers" of the illegals than as "fellow citizens" to their American neighbors, aren't helping unify us...they're helping to weaken us. It may not be a BIG thing if only Hispanics do this...we may yet survive. But if MANY groups ever got to feeling this way...seeing themselves not as Americans, but Italian-Americans, Japanese-, or Irish-, or Chinese-, or Indian-Americans, we'd never survive the next "hard time". We'd fall apart when things got rough.
Anyway, that's my position, for what it's worth. As I've said before, I believe the MAJORITY of support for illegals lies in two places...Hispanic 'ethnic solidarity' (i.e., "I support them because they're my people")...or 'affluent guilt' and 'soft racism' (i.e. "I KNOW they're illegal, but they're HAVE to come here, because they can't do any better at home...and besides, we can AFFORD it..we're RICH"). Those are 'understandable', maybe, but are NO legitimate reason to support illegal immigration. It's wrong, and it hurts our country...and if you're an American citizen, it hurts YOUR country, too.
None of this has anything to do with 'hate' or racism (which DO exist, of course). This is simply stating facts.
As far as my "pick any three countries" offer, I was attempting to illustrate the point that GOOD things exist in other cultures, and these things we can easily adopt and incorporate into our OWN...but that there are also a number of BAD things that go on in other cultures, that most of us WOULDN'T want to see introduced here....and that if you truly espouse multiculturalism in it fullest sense, you'd have to allow in the 'bad' along with the 'good'....a situation I'd hate to see happen.
Last edited by macmeal; 03-15-2009 at 02:16 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
