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Old 03-16-2009, 09:15 AM
 
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I'm glad there's a consensus here on so many points, and I truly am impressed at zacatecana's handling the difficult job of rape and domestic violence counselor.

But I respectfully and most vehemently disagree: no; multi-racial, yay! multi-ethnic, no. American citizens want to remain Americans and not involuntarily be slotted into the precepts, morals, and biases of those of a foreign country. Celebrate your ancestral past with friends and family or make a joyous, local civic occasion: Chinese New Year, St. Patrick's Day, Cinco de Mayo et al. Don't insist farming families in Kansas, Inuits in Alaska or greenies in Colorado adopt actual laws and cultural traits that mirror those of another country's. How truly unfair to all Americans.

Because: cultures are about laws as well as behaviors and preferences. Our American laws at least try for fairness, equality and tolerance. We also have shared values for the last 200 years of same, i.e., promoting opportunity for all, freedom of choice, equal rights for women, liking pets, non-patriarchy, non-misogyny, embracing the tenets of democracy, and correcting true grievances. And most new laws, here or elsewhere, are to redress grievances, real or perceived.

Two examples of the horrific consequences of a "multiethnic" society instead of an American democratic one, one rhetorical, one real are as follows: 1) there are foreign nationals, both legal citizens and illegal, living here who would like nothing better to change our laws, whether locally or federally, to mimic Sharia laws of discrimination towards women and enact draconian punishment for what our laws consider free speech and free press. (This process has already begun bigtime in our sister democracy of France.) Why? Because they consider themselves to be "whatever" foreign nationality first, and Americans second. This is wrong in our American society

2) the worst genuine example of the consequences of "multiethnicism" in America has already happened, fortunately in the now long gone prejudices of the past. During World War II Americans of Japanese descent were incarcerated into the shame of our own concentration camps. Why? Because the government bought into multiethnicism and considered these unfortunate folks to be Japanese first, American citizens second. This is wrong in our American society.

Where I live, foreign nationals are bullies, insisting that American citizens around them must adopt the ways of the country that those emigrants chose to leave. Bullying is an utterly infantile trait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfilm View Post
...living in a foreign country without at least trying to learn the language, entering into its culture or understanding its ways is like staying a child forever, dependent on something else for all your life. Here's to a mature America.

Last edited by fastfilm; 03-16-2009 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by fastfilm View Post
I'm glad there's a consensus here on so many points, and I truly am impressed at zacatecana's handling the difficult job of rape and domestic violence counselor.

But I respectfully and most vehemently disagree: no; multi-racial, yay! multi-ethnic, no. American citizens want to remain Americans and not involuntarily be slotted into the precepts, morals, and biases of those of a foreign country. Celebrate your ancestral past with friends and family or make a joyous, local civic occasion: Chinese New Year, St. Patrick's Day, Cinco de Mayo et al. Don't insist farming families in Kansas, Inuits in Alaska or greenies in Colorado adopt actual laws and cultural traits that mirror those of another country's. How truly unfair to all Americans.
Bullying is an utterly infantile trait.
As before...well-stated, well-explained. Race is built into our genes...it's how we 'look' and cannot be altered.

Culture, however, is LEARNED....and cultures are not always compatible, and FREQUENTLY are hostile to each other. "Disneyland" can be great fun...and in some ways, it truly IS a "small world". But the real world is not Disneyland, and when the 'fun' wears off, what's left is frequently a nasty, mean-spirited conflict of the million little everyday 'signals' of what makes up a culture. Frequently these 'signals' clash, and what's "OK" for one culture is "NOT ok" for another.....and what seems "funny" to one, causes RAGE in another. Cultures don't clash on the level of food, music, and art; they clash on the level of human behavior and interaction, and the ONLY way they'll 'get along' is if ONE 'submits' to another...period.

My ideal would be a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society, made up of people who agree to adhere to some sort of 'common culture' in 90% of their actions. Otherwise, if people continue to insist "I'll follow MY culture, and you follow YOURS", I can prcatically PROMISE that the results will be, at BEST, stressful and unpleasant and rude....and at WORST, violent and deadly.

Go back just for a moment to the current thread of the "illegal laborers in the Home Depot parking lot". Lots of anger is being expressed on that thread. Are these men "BAD", really? Other than being here illegally, no they AREN'T bad...what they're doing..(swarming cars in search of a day-job...pestering customers, and 'ogling' the passing housewives) would be TOTALLY APPROPRIATE...and fully expected...in a rough, lower-class neighborhood in Mexico. THere, it wouldn't cause alarm, and the passing ladies would know that they'd be 'ogled', and could take preventive measures. In lower-class Mexican society, this rough, 'all-male' scenario is understood.

In American suburbia, this is NOT understood...HERE, it causes annoyance, irritation, and in the case of some women, FEAR. WHY?...because it's "culturally inappropriate". That's not the way things are DONE in Suburbia....Men don't "act that way" in suburbia, and haven't, for several generations.

It's a classic case of culture clash. The laborers don't want to "annoy" people, they want to ATTRACT them, and be hired; they just don't understand that what they're doing IS annoying, because HERE, it's looked at as 'inappropriate'....and that's nolt because the local suburbanites are "stuck-up" or "mean"...it's because that this violates THEIR cultural 'norms".

Lots of anger, lots of disgust...and WHY?...Differing cultures, that's why.

Last edited by macmeal; 03-16-2009 at 09:52 AM..
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:08 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
As before...well-stated, well-explained. Race is built into our genes...it's how we 'look' and cannot be altered.

Culture, however, is LEARNED....and cultures are not always compatible, and FREQUENTLY are hostile to each other. "Disneyland" can be great fun...and in some ways, it truly IS a "small world". But the real world is not Disneyland, and when the 'fun' wears off, what's left is frequently a nasty, mean-spirited conflict of the million little everyday 'signals' of what makes up a culture. Frequently these 'signals' clash, and what's "OK" for one culture is "NOT ok" for another.....and what seems "funny" to one, causes RAGE in another. Cultures don't clash on the level of food, music, and art; they clash on the level of human behavior and interaction, and the ONLY way they'll 'get along' is if ONE 'submits' to another...period.

My ideal would be a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society, made up of people who agree to adhere to some sort of 'common culture' in 90% of their actions. Otherwise, if people continue to insist "I'll follow MY culture, and you follow YOURS", I can prcatically PROMISE that the results will be, at BEST, stressful and unpleasant and rude....and at WORST, violent and deadly.

Go back just for a moment to the current thread of the "illegal laborers in the Home Depot parking lot". Lots of anger is being expressed on that thread. Are these men "BAD", really? Other than being here illegally, no they AREN'T bad...what they're doing..(swarming cars in search of a day-job...pestering customers, and 'ogling' the passing housewives) would be TOTALLY APPROPRIATE...and fully expected...in a rough, lower-class neighborhood in Mexico. THere, it wouldn't cause alarm, and the passing ladies would know that they'd be 'ogled', and could take preventive measures. In lower-class Mexican society, this rough, 'all-male' scenario is understood.

In American suburbia, this is NOT understood...HERE, it causes annoyance, irritation, and in the case of some women, FEAR. WHY?...because it's "culturally inappropriate". That's not the way things are DONE in Suburbia....Men don't "act that way" in suburbia, and haven't, for several generations.

It's a classic case of culture clash. The laborers don't want to "annoy" people, they want to ATTRACT them, and be hired; they just don't understand that what they're doing IS annoying, because HERE, it's looked at as 'inappropriate'....and that's nolt because the local suburbanites are "stuck-up" or "mean"...it's because that this violates THEIR cultural 'norms".

Lots of anger, lots of disgust...and WHY?...Differing cultures, that's why.
Very good post as always my friend makes you reflect.

Now tell me something, anyone can feel free to answer this question as well.

Do you believe that middle classes among the world are more compatible?

we'll leave the middle east and africa out of the question, so do you think that middle classes from japan, brazil, europe, mexico, canada, england, etc are that different? or that they more or less share the same values that would allow a more harmonious day to day coexistence?
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Old 03-16-2009, 12:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
As before...well-stated, well-explained. Race is built into our genes...it's how we 'look' and cannot be altered.

Culture, however, is LEARNED....and cultures are not always compatible, and FREQUENTLY are hostile to each other. "Disneyland" can be great fun...and in some ways, it truly IS a "small world". But the real world is not Disneyland, and when the 'fun' wears off, what's left is frequently a nasty, mean-spirited conflict of the million little everyday 'signals' of what makes up a culture. Frequently these 'signals' clash, and what's "OK" for one culture is "NOT ok" for another.....and what seems "funny" to one, causes RAGE in another. Cultures don't clash on the level of food, music, and art; they clash on the level of human behavior and interaction, and the ONLY way they'll 'get along' is if ONE 'submits' to another...period.

My ideal would be a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society, made up of people who agree to adhere to some sort of 'common culture' in 90% of their actions. Otherwise, if people continue to insist "I'll follow MY culture, and you follow YOURS", I can prcatically PROMISE that the results will be, at BEST, stressful and unpleasant and rude....and at WORST, violent and deadly.

Go back just for a moment to the current thread of the "illegal laborers in the Home Depot parking lot". Lots of anger is being expressed on that thread. Are these men "BAD", really? Other than being here illegally, no they AREN'T bad...what they're doing..(swarming cars in search of a day-job...pestering customers, and 'ogling' the passing housewives) would be TOTALLY APPROPRIATE...and fully expected...in a rough, lower-class neighborhood in Mexico. THere, it wouldn't cause alarm, and the passing ladies would know that they'd be 'ogled', and could take preventive measures. In lower-class Mexican society, this rough, 'all-male' scenario is understood.

In American suburbia, this is NOT understood...HERE, it causes annoyance, irritation, and in the case of some women, FEAR. WHY?...because it's "culturally inappropriate". That's not the way things are DONE in Suburbia....Men don't "act that way" in suburbia, and haven't, for several generations.

It's a classic case of culture clash. The laborers don't want to "annoy" people, they want to ATTRACT them, and be hired; they just don't understand that what they're doing IS annoying, because HERE, it's looked at as 'inappropriate'....and that's nolt because the local suburbanites are "stuck-up" or "mean"...it's because that this violates THEIR cultural 'norms".

Lots of anger, lots of disgust...and WHY?...Differing cultures, that's why.
Speaking of cultural differences.........I read an interesting article several years ago (which of course I cannot find now) that reported a study done on the different lengths of time required for a full load of passengers to board a 747. If a 747 scheduled for an international flight was being boarded in Tokyo, the airline would plan on having everyone on board in around one hour (I can't remember the exact times). If the exact same 747 was being boarded in the US for an international flight, the airline would allow two hours and 15 minutes for everyone to get on board. Once again, I cannot remember the exact times, the main point was that the US passengers took more then twice as long to board as the Japanese, the aircraft was the same and so was the number of people. Why the time difference? No doubt someone will get all excited and accuse me of stereotyping, but I can just see the Japanese boarding the 747 in a very organized and efficient fashion, while we in the US trying to cut in line, hunting for our seats, standing in the aisle and asking the flight attendant for a pillow when there are 17 people lined up behind us, fighting over space in the overhead bins, kids are in the aisle fighting about who gets to sit by the window, etc, etc.
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Very good post as always my friend makes you reflect.

Now tell me something, anyone can feel free to answer this question as well.

Do you believe that middle classes among the world are more compatible?

we'll leave the middle east and africa out of the question, so do you think that middle classes from japan, brazil, europe, mexico, canada, england, etc are that different? or that they more or less share the same values that would allow a more harmonious day to day coexistence?
It's pretty safe to assume that middle class people, (with all that label entails), would be a lot more compatible and "on the same page", as their middle class counterparts elsewhere...yes, that's a good assumption.

For ONE thing, the middle class ANYWHERE is unlikely to end up as economic refugees, fleeing illegally to foreign countries;

for ANOTHER thing, just BEING in the Middle Class, it's safe to assume, means a person has a 'stake' in society, understands that things don't just "happen", but are the result of concentrated effort, and thus the Middle Class person has an incentive to live within the law...because he feels he had a voice in MAKING the law...

Poor, Third-World people see themselves as the 'victims' of luck, whim, and cruel 'fate'...and they approach life accordingly. Since the rules are unfair and unreasonable, you make your OWN rules, and 'take things where you can get them'. A middle class person feels in 'control' of his destiny, and has an incentive toward thoughtful, law-abiding behavior.
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Speaking of cultural differences.........I read an interesting article several years ago (which of course I cannot find now) that reported a study done on the different lengths of time required for a full load of passengers to board a 747. If a 747 scheduled for an international flight was being boarded in Tokyo, the airline would plan on having everyone on board in around one hour (I can't remember the exact times). If the exact same 747 was being boarded in the US for an international flight, the airline would allow two hours and 15 minutes for everyone to get on board. Once again, I cannot remember the exact times, the main point was that the US passengers took more then twice as long to board as the Japanese, the aircraft was the same and so was the number of people. Why the time difference? No doubt someone will get all excited and accuse me of stereotyping, but I can just see the Japanese boarding the 747 in a very organized and efficient fashion, while we in the US trying to cut in line, hunting for our seats, standing in the aisle and asking the flight attendant for a pillow when there are 17 people lined up behind us, fighting over space in the overhead bins, kids are in the aisle fighting about who gets to sit by the window, etc, etc.
I have NO problem at all believing this. The Japanese say 'the nail that protrudes will be hammered down'...while the American culture DELIGHTS in 'protruding'. Our biggest heroes are 'mavericks'...rough, cantankerous 'chracters', disobedient military officers, etc etc. Americans aren't good 'team players', and DEFINITELY have an aversion to 'following the herd'...to an almost ridiculous degree.

Someone once said that The American culture, like anything else, has limits...and while our 'ornery', crusty culture of the 'loner' the 'maverick', and the 'colorful character' might have served us well in taming a frontier, crossing a continent, and subduing a wilderness..that same culture might be problematic in living out our lives in suburbia..or 'getting along' with neighbors...(OR, as you suggest, in boarding a plane)..

PS Speaking of 'passengers'...I'll never forget MY culture shock the first time I experienced a "port call" on a cruise ship. Long accustomed to ships, from my Navy days, AND merchant marine service, my experience with port calls then, was EXODUS...anyone who could walk, hobble, or CRAWL, and was not required to be on 'watch', would almost literally "ride the gangway" down to the pier and be GONE into town in a FLASH. It was normal to 'empty' a ship of all 'liberty-goers' in about TEN MINUTES..."PARTY TIME !!".

On my first Cruise Ship? I couldn't BELIEVE what I saw...it was like a herd of CATTLE..people halfway down the gangway looking for their cameras..waiting for friends still aboard ship..stopping halfway down...blocking traffic... It took HOURS, it seemed' for these folks to casually 'saunter' ashore, and even longer to exit the pier area.

I realize a cruise ship carries a MUCH larger group than a Navy destroyer, OR a merchant ship...but it was STRIKING how different the 'disembarkation' process went.

Thanks for jogging my memory..

Last edited by macmeal; 03-16-2009 at 03:05 PM..
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Old 03-16-2009, 08:32 PM
 
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...Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country's flag and waving it to represent who they were. It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an American. They stirred the melting pot into one red, white and blue bowl.

And here we are in 2008 with a new kind of immigrant who wants the same rights and privileges. Only they want to achieve it by playing with a different set of rules, one that includes the entitlement card and a guarantee of being faithful to their mother country. I'm sorry, that's not what being an American is all about. I believe that the immigrants who landed on Ellis Island in the early 1900's deserve better than that for all the toil, hard work and sacrifice in raising future generations to create a land that has become a beacon for those legally searching for a better life I think they would be appalled that they are being used as an example by those waving foreign country flags.
Back to the original topic, with asides to subsequent posts and further questions for travelling fella, zacatecana et al-
Wouldn't it be nice if truly progressive traits were the ones we saw from foreign nationals who move here? Politeness to all, industry, tolerance, fairness, genuine attempts at communication in our English language, true enthusiasm for America, Americans and our laws combined with whatever were the best traits they gleaned from their former countries?

I'm often on the case of those who fail to distinguish legal from illegal immigrants; furthermore, there are cultural differences that are more like those I opined above and in tune with America, some more than others. Furthermore, I disparage those who condemn legal immigration, from whatever era. We invariably benefit from legal immigrants, just as we all invariably suffer from illegals. Example:

If California hadn't allowed legal Asian immigration into San Francisco a hundred or so years ago to work the railroads, we couldn't have had the entire digital revolution of the latter half of the 20th century. Why? The Asian cultures here emphasized personal betterment and education. Although a few..."white guys" (sorry) spearheaded the inventions, we would not have had the educated workforce to understand these innovations and further same into our current age of tech without our state's large population of educated people, so many of them of Asian ancestry in areas where it counted to recruit that workforce in Silicon Valley and the Bay Area.

Compare this to the people who come to live near me in L.A., and that I see throughout my city in travels to all areas other than the richest. They are inseparable from the "rough, third world, lower class, macho" neighborhoods delineated in macmeal's post about cultural differences. And this is the new majority of my city. We've gone from "let's welcome the new neighbors from ----- country over here to our house for a barbeque!" to the new neighbors from -----country spitting at me, shooting through the fence at my dogs, totalling my cars (yes, plural) from their driving without licenses lacking any knowledge of American driving laws, vandalizing, trashing, hating anyone not from their own "home country" and myriad, deliberate violations of building safety codes and quality of life issues affecting everyone around them.

So no, travelling fella, we are not seeing a levelling field of middle class similarity of values in L.A. If only!
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fastfilm View Post
Wouldn't it be nice if truly progressive traits were the ones we saw from foreign nationals who move here? Politeness to all, industry, tolerance, fairness, genuine attempts at communication in our English language, true enthusiasm for America, Americans and our laws combined with whatever were the best traits they gleaned from their former countries?

!
This DID happen, just the way you describe it...back when America was 'tough', when it demanded of immigrants "sink or swim....assimilate or be left out", what you describe IS what happened...people were pressured to assimilate, and American citizenship, AND the notion of "fitting in" became a rare prize to be sought after. We "demanded" the utmost of our immigrants, and we usually GOT it, because we 'set the bar high'. (My OWN ancestors included). Oftentimes, the old foreigner down the block who could barely speak English, had the biggest flag of ALL on the Fourth of July...he was GLAD to be here.

Today, we no longer "demand" much of anything. We push multiculturalism, and we actually seem to LIKE our immigrants to be 'colorful' and different. We REALLY don't even insist they be LEGAL..even if they're not, we STILL call them 'immigrants', and treat them as such. We require nothing of them; instead, we go to great lengths to accomodate THEM; it's as if WE are determined to assimilate to THEIR culture(s).

What message, then, do today's immigrants get? That we don't care about our society...so why should they? That we don't respect our own laws..so why should they?....that we consider THEIR culture to be on a par with our own...so why would THEY have any incentive to "change"?

Immigrants (or anyone else) will respect a country which respects itself; respect isn't automatic, it must be EARNED. And just now, we as a nation aren't "earning" much respect. We're like a woman who's seen as 'easy'...sure, she'll be popular...but she won't be respected.

There is VERY little tolerance in the Third World for the weak-willed, the indecisive, and the 'wimp'. And right now, that's how we're seen..and we're being treated accordingly.
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
This DID happen, just the way you describe it...back when America was 'tough', when it demanded of immigrants "sink or swim....assimilate or be left out", what you describe IS what happened...people were pressured to assimilate, and American citizenship, AND the notion of "fitting in" became a rare prize to be sought after. We "demanded" the utmost of our immigrants, and we usually GOT it, because we 'set the bar high'. (My OWN ancestors included). Oftentimes, the old foreigner down the block who could barely speak English, had the biggest flag of ALL on the Fourth of July...he was GLAD to be here.

Today, we no longer "demand" much of anything. We push multiculturalism, and we actually seem to LIKE our immigrants to be 'colorful' and different. We REALLY don't even insist they be LEGAL..even if they're not, we STILL call them 'immigrants', and treat them as such. We require nothing of them; instead, we go to great lengths to accomodate THEM; it's as if WE are determined to assimilate to THEIR culture(s).

What message, then, do today's immigrants get? That we don't care about our society...so why should they? That we don't respect our own laws..so why should they?....that we consider THEIR culture to be on a par with our own...so why would THEY have any incentive to "change"?

Immigrants (or anyone else) will respect a country which respects itself; respect isn't automatic, it must be EARNED. And just now, we as a nation aren't "earning" much respect. We're like a woman who's seen as 'easy'...sure, she'll be popular...but she won't be respected.

There is VERY little tolerance in the Third World for the weak-willed, the indecisive, and the 'wimp'. And right now, that's how we're seen..and we're being treated accordingly.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/mmc-digi-beta-production/assets/8540/Middle-Class-Chart (broken link)
http://s3.amazonaws.com/mmc-digi-beta-production/assets/8540/Middle-Class-ChartsOne.jpg (broken link)
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/img/worldgr.gif
http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/i/msnbc/C...ion_growth.gif

You are so right...the thing with the world is the anger towards the middle class...thats why we have so many countries..like the middle east..and africa..and parts of latin america in kaos...

is like that table above from 2002-2008
middle class grow..466 million around the world...at the expense of america,japan,europe...and in that same period total growth from
2002-2008 the worlds population incremented by 780 million...

the problem of assimilation...or immigration not adapting fast enough...
is that were truely seeing something that has never been seen...
back in the 17century..toward the 20 century...europeans
gave the world...progress..new methods of production, management..
life expectancy raised thanks to newer medicines..babies surviving
chronic diseases...etc..

but is still not enough...and it could get worse...if we dont introduce bigger investment at our loss...to for example africa, south east asia
"where majority of the population is going to increase" because
once we have establish and implemented our social ways of organization
were going to start seeing fertility rates go down
and actually letting progress catch up with the value of every single human being...

sorry that I right so much...but conclusion ..lol..you might just want to read this..lol...is that the third world is frustrated that it cannot have the same opportunities as the rest of the progressive sectors in the world..
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:08 AM
 
Location: San Diego
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One of the easiest ways would be for their schools/parents/govt to push birth control.
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