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Old 03-11-2009, 10:07 PM
 
365 posts, read 667,694 times
Reputation: 41

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
iturbide1981: do us all a favor and talk less but say more-----------otherwise you are being noting more than a Troll.

explain to me ...why you say to talk less and say more...
and why do you call me troll....

i think that I provide you with good statistics...and try to give you good responses....

instead...

of "get them out"
"they broke the laws"
do you want me to be like the rest and just give you narrow minded answers...

THERES ALWAYS TO POINTS OF VIEW....AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT...i am giving you mine...the problem is more complex then just giving
stupid responses..
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Old 03-11-2009, 10:54 PM
 
608 posts, read 881,266 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
What? Mexico has just learned of the internet? This is not a problem that just suddenly surfaced, they have known and tolerated a substandard police force for the entirety of their existance.

But that is not what I was talking about.

What I was referring to is Mexico's societal ladder. The ones at the top are ridiculously wealthy and the rest are horribly poor and uneducated. Why is that? Why are rich and educated people willing to look the other way as their countrymen are not educated....why are the rich/educated/influential people of Mexico happy to have their peons go illegally to the North?
The culture itself is rotted, and unless you want the US to play nation building down Mexico way it is not or place or ability to change Mexico.
Furthermore, it is not the US' fault that Mexico is the way it is.
It is Mexicans fault, no more and no less. And again, for the US to solve their problems well...just look to Iraq because that is how we solve other nations problems. I don't think any of us wants that.
You are right it did not just happen over night. Neither will change. You are asking the impossible if you expect Mexico to change more than 500 years of the "societal ladder" as you call it. Last I checked there was no revolution as that would be the only time such change could occur with such speed. Besides the wealthy (no matter the country) have no reason or interest to change as long as they remain wealthy.

Mexican culture is not rotted, you are judging their culture by your US/American ideals. By that rational you would call a practicing Muslim ungrateful if he would not accept a beer from you. Your view and ideals with regards to alcohol is very different than his. Mexicans in general are a group society and not as individualistic as compared to the US. This is why you will see mass demonstrations but usually not see many outspoken individuals when compared to the US.

I don't think I implied Mexico expects the US to do anything just yet. Calderon is reaching out to Obama as the only way for both countries to progress and address the issues that affect both countries (drugs, crime, immigration, etc.) is for them to work together. If the US were asked to step in I would think we would have already been there full force. But the last thing we need is another Iraq especially at our back door.

I know this may be hard to believe but this global recession if nothing else will make countries realize that they will need to work together. NAFTA was only the beginning improving trade policies and for good reason with the US having the second largest GDP (EU #1), Canada right about 11th or so and Mexico about 14th or 15th place at this time. The next part of the economic integration will be the security policies that Calderon is working on now. Look to the EU and see the process as to how countries are admitted.

I believe that if Italy can clean up and take back the country from the Mafia (who has been around for centuries) then it can be done in Mexico too. It just wont happen as fast as we all would like.
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Old 03-11-2009, 11:22 PM
 
608 posts, read 881,266 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
What? Mexico has just learned of the internet? This is not a problem that just suddenly surfaced, they have known and tolerated a substandard police force for the entirety of their existance.

But that is not what I was talking about.

What I was referring to is Mexicos societal ladder. The ones at the top are ridiculously wealthy and the rest are horribly poor and uneducated. Why is that? Why are rich and educated people willing to look the other way as their countrymen are not educated....why are the rich/educated/influential people of Mexico happy to have their peons go illegally to the North?
The culture itself is rotted, and unless you want the US to play nation building down Mexico way it is not or place or ability to change Mexico.
Furthermore, it is not the US' fault that Mexico is the way it is.
It is Mexicans fault, no more and no less. And again, for the US to solve their problems well...just look to Iraq because that is how we solve other nations problems. I don't think any of us wants that.
News 8 Austin | 24 Hour Local News | TOP STORIES
See this article. Not all wealthy and politicians are corrupt. It just isn't as easy to refuse a bribe when you and your family's life is at risk.
Quote:
Asylum-seekers include business owners, law enforcement agents and three Mexican police chiefs who refused bribes from drug cartels. One of the chiefs worked in the small town of Palomas, on the New Mexican border.
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:53 AM
 
365 posts, read 667,694 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Flip side:

That 'every dog for himself' mentality is the Achilles Heel of every Third World culture out there due to the ease of 'divide and conquer'.

One reason that First World nations are so powerful is strength through numbers and closing ranks when times get tough----------much like one huge family.
arizonabear sounds interesting that you say that...

Hungarian American - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

since this is a public forum..and we hava a right to agree and disagree...tell me
i was reading other post and you mention that your father was a legal immigrant from hungary right?
so tell me this...
The circumstances of the third wave of immigration had much in common with the first wave. In 1956, Hungary was again under the power of a foreign state, this time the Soviet Union, and again Hungarians rose up in revolution. Like the revolution of 1848, the 1956 Hungarian Revolution failed and led to the emigration of 200,000 "56-ers" fleeing persecution after the revolution. 40,000 of them found their way to the United States.

so tell me this was your father....
a 56-ers? that when ? let me put it in your own words..
That 'every dog for himself' mentality is the Achilles Heel of every Third World culture out there due to the ease of 'divide and conquer'.

One reason that First World nations are so powerful is strength through numbers and closing ranks when times get tough----------much like one huge family.[/quote]

so when things got tough, instead of staying to reform the land of his ancestors he just gave up on it...and ran?

is that where you learn that stupid quote...dont be to harsh...on this topics..my friend...or go back and reform your
grandaddies..and your great grandaddies land that a lot of hungarians..so cowardly left....and i figure your in your forties...
so if your father is not a 56ers...then they just ran in an earlier time

NOW THAT MY FRIEND IS
PUTTING RIGHTFUL MEDICINE ON SUCH A HARSH MENTALITY....
"BUT HE CAME LEGALLY"...might be your response .OF course there more cubans...legally because...of americans hospetality of giving asylum to people that dont stand up to their goverments...GETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

Last edited by iturbide1981; 03-12-2009 at 01:04 AM..
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Old 03-12-2009, 01:05 AM
 
365 posts, read 667,694 times
Reputation: 41
And my friend over 1,000,000 mexicans died trying to reform our country at the time being 20 percent of our male population...mexican revoultion

so dont say that were cowards...and that we dont want to reform.....

The Mexican-born settlers in Texas were soon vastly outnumbered by people born in the United States. To address this situation, President Anastasio Bustamante implemented several measures on April 6, 1830. Chief among these was a prohibition against further immigration to Texas from the United States, although American citizens would be allowed to settle in other parts of Mexico. Furthermore, the property tax law, intended to exempt immigrants from paying taxes for ten years, was rescinded, and tariffs were increased on goods shipped from the United States. Bustamante also ordered Texas settlers to comply with the federal prohibition against slavery or face military intervention.[6] These measures did not have the intended effect. Settlers simply circumvented or ignored the laws. By 1834, it was estimated that over 30,000 Anglos[clarification needed] lived in Texas,[7] compared to only 7800 Mexican-born citizens.[8] By 1836, there were approximately 5,000 slaves in Texas.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Revolution

another theme...we went to war against law abiding citizens...learn from mexico
mexico did not enforce the laws..and look what happen...
but yet your keep repeating that we dont respect laws etc..etc...ring anybells? if your big brother does not set you an example how are you going to take his word for it...karma came and bit past historical consequences....
second Mexico a non nordic country was one of the first countries to stand up against slavery....
SLAVERY....you might compare...slavery with our peon system
but let me reassure you we do not have...
all the scars...and issues like america has.that america faces..
and that my friend is something this great country can learn from little mexico

Last edited by iturbide1981; 03-12-2009 at 01:16 AM..
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
My father fled Hungary in 1948 and arrived here in the USA in 1951-----------he had a sponsor, etc.

As for Mexico: many other countries and societies suffered far worse yet today are socio-economic powerhouses. Germany, Japan and the Jews all come to mind--------and we are discussing since 1945.

If the above could succeed despite terrible odds------------what is Mexico's excuse?
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:47 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,036,601 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by iturbide1981 View Post
And my friend over 1,000,000 mexicans died trying to reform our country at the time being 20 percent of our male population...mexican revoultion

so dont say that were cowards...and that we dont want to reform.....

The Mexican-born settlers in Texas were soon vastly outnumbered by people born in the United States. To address this situation, President Anastasio Bustamante implemented several measures on April 6, 1830. Chief among these was a prohibition against further immigration to Texas from the United States, although American citizens would be allowed to settle in other parts of Mexico. Furthermore, the property tax law, intended to exempt immigrants from paying taxes for ten years, was rescinded, and tariffs were increased on goods shipped from the United States. Bustamante also ordered Texas settlers to comply with the federal prohibition against slavery or face military intervention.[6] These measures did not have the intended effect. Settlers simply circumvented or ignored the laws. By 1834, it was estimated that over 30,000 Anglos[clarification needed] lived in Texas,[7] compared to only 7800 Mexican-born citizens.[8] By 1836, there were approximately 5,000 slaves in Texas.[9]
Texas Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

another theme...we went to war against law abiding citizens...learn from mexico
mexico did not enforce the laws..and look what happen...
but yet your keep repeating that we dont respect laws etc..etc...ring anybells? if your big brother does not set you an example how are you going to take his word for it...karma came and bit past historical consequences....
second Mexico a non nordic country was one of the first countries to stand up against slavery....
SLAVERY....you might compare...slavery with our peon system
but let me reassure you we do not have...
all the scars...and issues like america has.that america faces..
and that my friend is something this great country can learn from little mexico
1830? You are really going to bring up what happened in 1830?! Talk about a country resting on its laurels!!
Because the fact is, you dropped the ball. You allowed your country to become split into the haves and have nots. You allowed using - yes, using - another sovereign nation as a dumping ground for your impoverished citizens.
And yet somehow it is the US' fault? The US is to blame for all of Mexicos ills? But Mexicans themselves are blameless because after all....they fought back in 1830 - Viva la revolution!

Pull your head out and realize -- the US is the US and Mexico is Mexico. We are not your big brother, we are not your slave master, and we are not your savior.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:57 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,036,601 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
You are right it did not just happen over night. Neither will change. You are asking the impossible if you expect Mexico to change more than 500 years of the "societal ladder" as you call it. Last I checked there was no revolution as that would be the only time such change could occur with such speed. Besides the wealthy (no matter the country) have no reason or interest to change as long as they remain wealthy.
Exactly, so how is Mexico the US' responsibility? And just what do you propose the US do about it -- besides continuing to accept Mexican illegals by the millions while simultaneously throwing millions of dollars to Calderon so that he can make improvements?
Mexican culture is not rotted, you are judging their culture by your US/American ideals. By that rational you would call a practicing Muslim ungrateful if he would not accept a beer from you. Your view and ideals with regards to alcohol is very different than his. Mexicans in general are a group society and not as individualistic as compared to the US. This is why you will see mass demonstrations but usually not see many outspoken individuals when compared to the US.
Why would you think I am so stupid as to be insulted if a muslim wouldn't accept a beer? How is that even remotely the same as saying that the US should not have to accept Mexicos 'undesirables'? Besides, whether a nation is one of cultural 'group think' or more individualistic the fact remains -- change can occur if the populace wanted it. And Mexicans will never be motivated enough to ennact change as long as the US serves as a societal safety valve for Mexico.
I don't think I implied Mexico expects the US to do anything just yet. Calderon is reaching out to Obama as the only way for both countries to progress and address the issues that affect both countries (drugs, crime, immigration, etc.) is for them to work together. If the US were asked to step in I would think we would have already been there full force. But the last thing we need is another Iraq especially at our back door.
Calderon wants his cake and to eat it to....he wants money from the US but he still wants to be able to export his poor to the US as well.
I know this may be hard to believe but this global recession if nothing else will make countries realize that they will need to work together. NAFTA was only the beginning improving trade policies and for good reason with the US having the second largest GDP (EU #1), Canada right about 11th or so and Mexico about 14th or 15th place at this time. The next part of the economic integration will be the security policies that Calderon is working on now. Look to the EU and see the process as to how countries are admitted.
Yes, lets look to the EU.......for a country to be admitted, it has to be in line with other member countrys in regards to human rights, and financial and societal stabilty. What could Mexico offer us? An unlimited supply of uneducated people willing to work for subpar wages? I certainly can see how that would appeal to corporations and politicians but exactly how does that benefit the US as a whole?
I believe that if Italy can clean up and take back the country from the Mafia (who has been around for centuries) then it can be done in Mexico too. It just wont happen as fast as we all would like.
Yes, Italy cleaned itself up -- and Mexico will have to do the same. I imagine it to be like a junkie....only they can make the decision to stop living an addicts life and usually it will take something drastic to make that decision for them.
All the well meaning love and support will not get an addict clean -- only they can make that happen.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:58 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,036,601 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
News 8 Austin | 24 Hour Local News | TOP STORIES
See this article. Not all wealthy and politicians are corrupt. It just isn't as easy to refuse a bribe when you and your family's life is at risk.
Yes, now that the violence has gotten to the point that the middle class is feeling it, suddenly it is a problem in Mexico. You don't think the poor haven't been in the crossfire for decades?
Again, they are the ones that created this problem, and short of an US invasion only Mexico can solve this problem.
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Old 03-12-2009, 08:15 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,802 posts, read 30,052,880 times
Reputation: 17695
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Yes, now that the violence has gotten to the point that the middle class is feeling it, suddenly it is a problem in Mexico. You don't think the poor haven't been in the crossfire for decades?
Again, they are the ones that created this problem, and short of an US invasion only Mexico can solve this problem.
Obama is opposed to putting military on the border.
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