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Old 03-13-2009, 02:21 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,638,049 times
Reputation: 2983

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Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post

Is it too difficult to comprehend someone being anti-illegal and not racist?
In a word, yes. For many people on the forum, this is a concept beyond their ability to grasp. Makes for a VERY difficult 'conversation'..to put it mildly.

 
Old 03-13-2009, 02:39 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,087,689 times
Reputation: 822
Okay, nobody is pro-illegal. The "pro-illegal" thing is basically stemming from how we should treat illegal immigrants.

My mom is an immigrant. She moved here from West Africa. While, we both dislike the illegal aspect of illegal immigration, we still look at as if they are hardworking contributing members of society. I asked my mom if she would have come here illegally for her kids. As a good mom, she hestitated, and was conflicted. Ultimately, yes she would. She would risk everything to give her children a better life. Fortunately, we are middle class and I never suffered. But, I visited my mother's village. Little electricity, little running water, public shools cost money (nobody is starving in Ivory Coast at least).

So I guess what I'm saying is that is there a possbility that morality is fluid and not rigid? That laws need to change to reflect the current dynamic state of our nation? That we need to actually reach a consensus between those who are more empathetic towards immigrants to those who are more nationalistic?

I personally think these questions really are at the crux of the whole immigration debate.
 
Old 03-13-2009, 02:40 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,087,689 times
Reputation: 822
Also, there are some very mis informed threads regarding people from the developing world in general, regardless of legality.
 
Old 03-13-2009, 02:51 PM
 
Location: in purgurtory in London
3,721 posts, read 3,337,359 times
Reputation: 1292
Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
So, I assume the bolded question is the only one you believe is correct?


Who exactly? Usernames please--and evidence.
C'mon, listen let's not get trifling. I've been looking in on this forum long enough to know the mindset of some of these people, however you will NOT corner me on every little silly inane detail. Yes I do believe some of you stereo type hispanics as illegals. I've seen it here and other forums when a person with a Spanish last name, even first name is arrested for something and before you know it he's be accused of being illegal.
You want a username? Hell you know how it is, you see one you see all of them I'm not here often enough to be familiar with anyones name except maybe three or so die hards.
 
Old 03-13-2009, 02:59 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,052,951 times
Reputation: 2878
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Okay, nobody is pro-illegal. The "pro-illegal" thing is basically stemming from how we should treat illegal immigrants.

My mom is an immigrant. She moved here from West Africa. While, we both dislike the illegal aspect of illegal immigration, we still look at as if they are hardworking contributing members of society. I asked my mom if she would have come here illegally for her kids. As a good mom, she hestitated, and was conflicted. Ultimately, yes she would. She would risk everything to give her children a better life. Fortunately, we are middle class and I never suffered. But, I visited my mother's village. Little electricity, little running water, public shools cost money (nobody is starving in Ivory Coast at least).

So I guess what I'm saying is that is there a possbility that morality is fluid and not rigid? That laws need to change to reflect the current dynamic state of our nation? That we need to actually reach a consensus between those who are more empathetic towards immigrants to those who are more nationalistic?

I personally think these questions really are at the crux of the whole immigration debate.
Hypothetically anything is possible. The reality is oftentimes quite different.
The question with immigration is do we have open borders or do we have the right and obligation to ensure those coming into the country will be beneficial to our society as a whole.
Illegal immigration circumvents that, and the question remains - do they have the right to do so? The fact that people are here illegally and doing illegal things in order to make a living such as identity fraud does that make a difference? Or is illegal just another viable immigration option?
And of course, when is too many too many? What should keep an immigrant out of the country, and in the grand scheme of things is that even fair?
It is possible with moral relativism to insist that anyone who wants to immigrate should be allowed to do so with no regard to their past, eduation level, skill set, and/or mindset. With your argument, there should be no set numbers, no requirements. Is that even workable? Would that be too great a strain on already strained state budgets? Could we afford them?
 
Old 03-13-2009, 03:01 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,638,049 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Okay, nobody is pro-illegal. The "pro-illegal" thing is basically stemming from how we should treat illegal immigrants.

My mom is an immigrant. She moved here from West Africa. While, we both dislike the illegal aspect of illegal immigration, we still look at as if they are hardworking contributing members of society. I asked my mom if she would have come here illegally for her kids. As a good mom, she hestitated, and was conflicted. Ultimately, yes she would. She would risk everything to give her children a better life. Fortunately, we are middle class and I never suffered. But, I visited my mother's village. Little electricity, little running water, public shools cost money (nobody is starving in Ivory Coast at least).

So I guess what I'm saying is that is there a possbility that morality is fluid and not rigid? That laws need to change to reflect the current dynamic state of our nation? That we need to actually reach a consensus between those who are more empathetic towards immigrants to those who are more nationalistic?

I personally think these questions really are at the crux of the whole immigration debate.
All congrats to you and your Mom....another success story, IMHO.

Meanwhile, your post brings to mind that old American cliche, "Firm but Fair". As one who has had a DECADES-long front-row seat in the 'illegal' drama, I can confidentally say that whatever side of the aisle you're on, if America (a "good" country, most of us would agree) had only made a half-hearted effort to be 'firm but fair', 90% of the rancor and anger we see today would never have happened. If we'd only said "We're a GOOD COUNTRY...we take in MILLIONS...we're EASY, and we're INCLUSIVE...but we INSIST you respect our laws", I honestly think the message would have gotten through, and today there'd be NO frustration...NO dashed hopes...NO sense of entitlement...NO misunderstandings. It would have "been what it was" as far as our 'image'...a nice, welcoming,..but FIRM country, which went to great lengths to 'take in' the world's people...but which had firm, clear, well-understood rules, which it INSISTED be obeyed.

Instead of "Firm but Fair", we're now seen as "Lax and Undecided."...and because of THAT, human nature being what it is, since we obviously don't take our OWN laws seriously part of the time...when we DO decide to crack down, we're seen as "wishy-washy, racist, and UNFAIR". That's what happens when you don't respect yourself....pretty soon, nobody else does, either.

The Third World is a tough place, with little patience for 'wimps'. Right now, we're pretty much seen as 'wimps'. NOT FIRM....and NOT FAIR, either.

Pity.
 
Old 03-13-2009, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,290 posts, read 4,955,125 times
Reputation: 784
Quote:
A legal immigrant who agrees with law enforcement? What a shock!
A legal immigrant who has no idea how immigration laws apply to employers and businesses, but knows darn sure how they apply to poor people?

Hmmm ... the term useful idiot comes to mind.
 
Old 03-13-2009, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Where laws can be ignored due to political correctness
1,111 posts, read 1,584,781 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by backfist View Post
A legal immigrant who has no idea how immigration laws apply to employers and businesses, but knows darn sure how they apply to poor people?

Hmmm ... the term useful idiot comes to mind.
Well well, what an attitude. Do you know him personally enough to make those accusations or do you just despise him because he doesn't believe in free passes for illegals?
 
Old 03-13-2009, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,290 posts, read 4,955,125 times
Reputation: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
Well well, what an attitude. Do you know him personally enough to make those accusations or do you just despise him because he doesn't believe in free passes for illegals?
My attitude isn't up for inspection. That said, I despise no person. I despise willful ignorance and arrogant naivete.
 
Old 03-13-2009, 03:23 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,052,951 times
Reputation: 2878
Quote:
Originally Posted by backfist View Post
A legal immigrant who has no idea how immigration laws apply to employers and businesses, but knows darn sure how they apply to poor people?

Hmmm ... the term useful idiot comes to mind.
Why do you assume that people are unaware of business and yes, politicians take on immigration?
Of course businesses are benefitting from not paying a decent wage to illegals -- that is why they want them. As for politicians and illegals...well, again follow the money and in their case power as well.
If you wanted to talk about that, make a new thread but this thread was about blacks and latinos take on illegal immigrants. Which could be the reason why businesses complicity has not been mentioned before.
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