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Old 03-17-2009, 07:37 PM
 
608 posts, read 880,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marylee54 View Post
The Irish worked from the bottom up---unlike today's immigrants who expect the best right off the bat while displacing American workers.
Wait a minute. Illegal Irish immigration has always continued but under the radar. It stepped in the late 80s and early 90s and continues today. They are helped by their strong family network in Irish hotbeds one of which I am from (Boston) and witnessed first hand. My landlady hid many over the years as she ran a boarding house for her Irish countrymen during the 60s through to 80s.

Same argument applies just as for all other illegal immigrants that everyone whinges about here. They take construction jobs, clean offices, clean houses, baby sat, etc. No doubt taking advantage of public services (emergency care), taking advantage of birthright citizenship, etc. They do speak English and even try to hide their Irish accent / brogue so as to not be detected.

Maybe those immigrants of the past that you speak of Irish, Italian or other worked from bottom up they were still illegal!
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Old 03-17-2009, 07:37 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
Actually we still need all types, cost of living just keeps increasing. Blame evil corporate America as well as the greedy home owner hoping to flip their house for profit and to buy another larger one with overextended credit while spending and not saving their profit from the first home, etc. etc. etc.
Evil homeowners or no; selfish yuppies aside; the market just isn't there anymore for unskilled labor. Why do you suppose virtually EVERY PNW 'Timber town' is now considered a borderline 'depressed area'? No need for loggers or millworkers, that's why. Why do you suppose vast areas of the Upper Midwest are actually DEPOPULATING today? No place for small farmers, OR hired farm labor, that's why. How many people now make their living laboring in steel mills.?

ALL of these jobs, and more, used to be HUGE 'immigrant sponges', soaking up the 'newbies' as fast as they'd come ashore. No more....today, it's hard to make a 'decent' living without an education..and when the living isn't 'decent', people get ANGRY, and they feel 'abused'...so where, again, do you suggest we employ the ILLEGALS in this economy?...
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Old 03-17-2009, 07:49 PM
 
608 posts, read 880,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Evil homeowners or no; selfish yuppies aside; the market just isn't there anymore for unskilled labor. Why do you suppose virtually EVERY PNW 'Timber town' is now considered a borderline 'depressed area'? No need for loggers or millworkers, that's why. Why do you suppose vast areas of the Upper Midwest are actually DEPOPULATING today? No place for small farmers, OR hired farm labor, that's why. How many people now make their living laboring in steel mills.?

ALL of these jobs, and more, used to be HUGE 'immigrant sponges', soaking up the 'newbies' as fast as they'd come ashore. No more....today, it's hard to make a 'decent' living without an education..and when the living isn't 'decent', people get ANGRY, and they feel 'abused'...so where, again, do you suggest we employ the ILLEGALS in this economy?...
I already posed an article about small Vermont farmers struggling because they cannot find farm hands and thus turn to illegal help. The jobs are there, they are just not where people want to live.

The biggest misconceptions of unemployment versus immigration is that we assume our legal low to unskilled workers are mobile. In some cases they are willing to move for work hence the DEPOPULATION you mention above. In other cases they (legal and unemployed) are supported by public assistance of all sorts because they will not move. So which is it? Do we tell people no more unemployment assistance because there is a job shoveling manure in Vermont waiting for you? Or do we accommodate our unemployed populace by forcing companies to relocate to the unemployed and low/unskilled labor.

I would think there would be a balance but how we get there but without funding for business startups or assistance for struggling business we have what we get. A mismatch of unemployed and small businesses, farms, etc. dying for workers but unable to hire legal ones. Sort of hard to hire a worker if no one applies. Right?
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:07 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
I already posed an article about small Vermont farmers struggling because they cannot find farm hands and thus turn to illegal help. The jobs are there, they are just not where people want to live.

The biggest misconceptions of unemployment versus immigration is that we assume our legal low to unskilled workers are mobile. In some cases they are willing to move for work hence the DEPOPULATION you mention above. In other cases they (legal and unemployed) are supported by public assistance of all sorts because they will not move. So which is it? Do we tell people no more unemployment assistance because there is a job shoveling manure in Vermont waiting for you? Or do we accommodate our unemployed populace by forcing companies to relocate to the unemployed and low/unskilled labor.

I would think there would be a balance but how we get there but without funding for business startups or assistance for struggling business we have what we get. A mismatch of unemployed and small businesses, farms, etc. dying for workers but unable to hire legal ones. Sort of hard to hire a worker if no one applies. Right?
All that you cite may be true...yet regardless of HOW we solve it in the future..(which we WILL be forced to), the introduction of MILLIONS of illegal non-citizens in the interim can't HELP but make the problem worse, by several orders of magnitude. You seem to be of the mind that illegals are more 'flexible' than low-skilled Americans...and of COURSE they are...they HAVE to be, because they're illegal !....(SLAVES were pretty 'agreeable', too, I'd imagine).

What happens if these 20+ million illegals gets amnesty? Suddenly, there goes their 'flexibility'. Instantly, you just have one more tremendous pool of unhappy, low-paid American labor, no longer "having" to be compliant...no different from those you cite above.

Worse yet, what happens if these people DON'T get amnesty? PROBABLY violence and bloodshed, IMHO...can you even IMAGINE how that would "go down".

Best bet is to simply keep them in limbo, neither having to legalize them and cause societal rage,(and lessen their appeal to their 'greedy' employers) or having to deport them and cause OTHER rage. NICE, NICE situation!...

It's an ugly situation, heavily overlain by a nasty streak of ethnic conflict (potentially, ALWAYS the 'nastiest' sort of conflict). But win, lose, or draw, allowing MORE illegals in can't help but exacerbate an already awful problem. If you think it's hard to let 20 million 'intruders' IN, wait until we try to get them OUT.

Can you spell "C-O-N-F-L-I-C-T ?"
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:20 PM
 
608 posts, read 880,836 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
All that you cite may be true...yet regardless of HOW we solve it in the future..(which we WILL be forced to), the introduction of MILLIONS of illegal non-citizens in the interim can't HELP but make the problem worse, by several orders of magnitude. You seem to be of the mind that illegals are more 'flexible' than low-skilled Americans...and of COURSE they are...they HAVE to be, because they're illegal !....(SLAVES were pretty 'agreeable', too, I'd imagine).

What happens if these 20+ million illegals gets amnesty? Suddenly, there goes their 'flexibility'. Instantly, you just have one more tremendous pool of unhappy, low-paid American labor, no longer "having" to be compliant...no different from those you cite above.

Worse yet, what happens if these people DON'T get amnesty? PROBABLY violence and bloodshed, IMHO...can you even IMAGINE how that would "go down".

Best bet is to simply keep them in limbo, neither having to legalize them and cause societal rage,(and lessen their appeal to their 'greedy' employers) or having to deport them and cause OTHER rage. NICE, NICE situation!...

It's an ugly situation, heavily overlain by a nasty streak of ethnic conflict (potentially, ALWAYS the 'nastiest' sort of conflict). But win, lose, or draw, allowing MORE illegals in can't help but exacerbate an already awful problem. If you think it's hard to let 20 million 'intruders' IN, wait until we try to get them OUT.

Can you spell "C-O-N-F-L-I-C-T ?"
Don't get me wrong I am not in total disagreement with what you stated above. But do understand what I refer to is legal immigration control balanced with the needs of unemployment rates in our vast country. But until we have secured and controlled borders there is not much we actually should do and why the issue is and remains in limbo. The reality today is as you have stated, we have a mobile working population that is willing to work where ever and for however much they are paid. They are not slaves. You cannot enslave the free and willing.
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Evil homeowners or no; selfish yuppies aside; the market just isn't there anymore for unskilled labor. Why do you suppose virtually EVERY PNW 'Timber town' is now considered a borderline 'depressed area'? No need for loggers or millworkers, that's why. Why do you suppose vast areas of the Upper Midwest are actually DEPOPULATING today? No place for small farmers, OR hired farm labor, that's why. How many people now make their living laboring in steel mills.?

ALL of these jobs, and more, used to be HUGE 'immigrant sponges', soaking up the 'newbies' as fast as they'd come ashore. No more....today, it's hard to make a 'decent' living without an education..and when the living isn't 'decent', people get ANGRY, and they feel 'abused'...so where, again, do you suggest we employ the ILLEGALS in this economy?...
That’s an excellent question. We currently have 12.5 million unemployed U.S. citizens, and we are averaging 600,000 additional unemployed on a monthly basis – not to mention millions of underemployed. Arguably, a large percentage of these desperate citizens will be willing to downgrade their vocations rather than lose their homes, or watch their children suffer. If we don’t have enough jobs for our own citizens; how the heck will we have enough for illegals? This is a recipe for disaster.
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
All that you cite may be true...yet regardless of HOW we solve it in the future..(which we WILL be forced to), the introduction of MILLIONS of illegal non-citizens in the interim can't HELP but make the problem worse, by several orders of magnitude. You seem to be of the mind that illegals are more 'flexible' than low-skilled Americans...and of COURSE they are...they HAVE to be, because they're illegal !....(SLAVES were pretty 'agreeable', too, I'd imagine).

What happens if these 20+ million illegals gets amnesty? Suddenly, there goes their 'flexibility'. Instantly, you just have one more tremendous pool of unhappy, low-paid American labor, no longer "having" to be compliant...no different from those you cite above.

Worse yet, what happens if these people DON'T get amnesty? PROBABLY violence and bloodshed, IMHO...can you even IMAGINE how that would "go down".

Best bet is to simply keep them in limbo, neither having to legalize them and cause societal rage,(and lessen their appeal to their 'greedy' employers) or having to deport them and cause OTHER rage. NICE, NICE situation!...

It's an ugly situation, heavily overlain by a nasty streak of ethnic conflict (potentially, ALWAYS the 'nastiest' sort of conflict). But win, lose, or draw, allowing MORE illegals in can't help but exacerbate an already awful problem. If you think it's hard to let 20 million 'intruders' IN, wait until we try to get them OUT.

Can you spell "C-O-N-F-L-I-C-T ?"
The absolute truth!!
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:31 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,294,821 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
Don't get me wrong I am not in total disagreement with what you stated above. But do understand what I refer to is legal immigration control balanced with the needs of unemployment rates in our vast country. But until we have secured and controlled borders there is not much we actually should do and why the issue is and remains in limbo. The reality today is as you have stated, we have a mobile working population that is willing to work where ever and for however much they are paid. They are not slaves. You cannot enslave the free and willing.
I agree and perhaps that's another reason why nobody is enforcing the law, knowing that it will get ugly if they do, it's better to continue resting in the confort zone of the limbo that has been created, while the problem keeps growing and festering.
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:42 PM
 
608 posts, read 880,836 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
That’s an excellent question. We currently have 12.5 million unemployed U.S. citizens, and we are averaging 600,000 additional unemployed on a monthly basis – not to mention millions of underemployed. Arguably, a large percentage of these desperate citizens will be willing to downgrade their vocations rather than lose their homes, or watch their children suffer. If we don’t have enough jobs for our own citizens; how the heck will we have enough for illegals? This is a recipe for disaster.
I do not disagree however, no one is answering the question as to how to get the unemployed to relocate to where the jobs are. Typically those who are low/unskilled are not willing to relocate. If we could solve this problem AND have secured and controlled borders then we can control (open or close) the doors of immigration.
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:48 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,032,296 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
I do not disagree however, no one is answering the question as to how to get the unemployed to relocate to where the jobs are. Typically those who are low/unskilled are not willing to relocate. If we could solve this problem AND have secured and controlled borders then we can control (open or close) the doors of immigration.
I recall a lot of stories about a year or so ago about companies in Wyoming 'head hunting' in Michigan, particularily in Detroit.
They seemed to be getting a lot of workers, but of course some couldn't take the culture shock of moving out to the boonies of big sky country.

Others did do well though.....I imagine more people would be willing to give it a shot especially in this economy.
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