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Old 03-26-2009, 06:14 PM
 
1,117 posts, read 1,747,010 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Quite correct..this is why I said that the compromise I offered goes "against all my principles". In an open, democratic society of laws, your position would be beyond argument..But today, we're becoming more and more a nation of 'cultures', pitted against each other....and compromise may be the best we can hope for.

Do I LIKE it? No...not the least reason for which is, any compromise on THIS issue will undoubtedly open up a whole WORLD of compromises on OTHER subjects which all our different 'cultures' disagree on. A compromise on illegal immigration (for reasons of 'ethnic expediency') could, and will, establish legal precedent for future such compromises. You don't think the ACLU is going to let this be the LAST time...do you?
I completely agree. And this is why I feel that a country that strives for multi-culturalism and "diversity" are recipes for disaster. All this accomplishes is the creation of culture clashes, religious conflicts, political disputes, and language barriers.

A healthy country is comprised of UNITED and like-minded citizens who speak the same language, practice basically the same religion, embrace the same political idealogies, and share the same culture. This creates harmony. It's a no-brainer and SO obvious that trying to mix cultures, religions, languages and political ideals simply doesn't work.
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Old 03-26-2009, 07:02 PM
 
Location: central Oregon
1,856 posts, read 2,025,508 times
Reputation: 2377
[quote=FormerCaliforniaGirl;8058144]
Quote:

This is what the last amnesty was supposed to achieve. So, I am totally agasint another mass amnesty with the stipulation that we enforce our immgration laws. We need to enforce our immigration laws WITHOUT an amnesty. We need to learn from our mistakes and do it the right way this time.

Another amnesty will send the same message the last one did....come here illegally, and you will eventually be rewarded. This time, we need to have a mass deportation of illegals, and then finally start enforcing our immigration laws.
One only has to look at what our government is doing with these damn bailouts to know that it's somehow become the IN thing to reward BAD BEHAVIOR! Those who play by the rules are the only ones being screwed. NO AMNESTY now or ever again... no rewarding lawbreakers... no matter what.
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Old 03-26-2009, 08:08 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
I just wanted to ask, posters of "both sides" of the issue, are you even open to a compromise on the complex resolution of illegal immigration? Are you willing to balance the needs of returning to a country of law-enforcement on the issue vs. humanitarian concerns? Or does each side think there viewpoint is unreconcilable.
Democracy is about compromise. If we cannot come to an agreement on the issue, on the valid concerns of all the stakeholders, then you are essentially against how democracy works. And discussion becomes near pointless.

Humanitarian in what way? Sending most illegals back home is not actually like falling off the edge of the earth.

Many illegals like the money and the easy life here but when they do get deported, they go back to where they were from and will do just fine.

One illegal who lived near me got deported after they were out drinking and had a little fight in the bar. He went back to where he was from and apparently the Mexican government offers some kind of program to help people like him get started back in farming -- he now decided he doesn't want to come back to the USA, he's decided working his own little ranch was better than working as a low paid servant for someone else. Plus he gets to be with his wife and kids now.
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Old 03-26-2009, 08:12 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,297,320 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Humanitarian in what way? Sending most illegals back home is not actually like falling off the edge of the earth.

Many illegals like the money and the easy life here but when they do get deported, they go back to where they were from and will do just fine.

One illegal who lived near me got deported after they were out drinking and had a little fight in the bar. He went back to where he was from and apparently the Mexican government offers some kind of program to help people like him get started back in farming -- he now decided he doesn't want to come back to the USA, he's decided working his own little ranch was better than working as a low paid servant for someone else. Plus he gets to be with his wife and kids now.
That's what I don't understand, why trade a laidback easy going life in company of your dear ones, for a life of very very hard work, lonelyness, etc.

Like you wisely stated my friend, is not like they are going to die or go under extreme suffering.
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Old 03-26-2009, 08:17 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Humanitarian in what way? Sending most illegals back home is not actually like falling off the edge of the earth.

Many illegals like the money and the easy life here but when they do get deported, they go back to where they were from and will do just fine.

One illegal who lived near me got deported after they were out drinking and had a little fight in the bar. He went back to where he was from and apparently the Mexican government offers some kind of program to help people like him get started back in farming -- he now decided he doesn't want to come back to the USA, he's decided working his own little ranch was better than working as a low paid servant for someone else. Plus he gets to be with his wife and kids now.
Amazing though it may seem, the vast majority of Mexicans live in (gasp!) Mexico. Evidently, they are doing well and see no need to pack up and cross illegally into the US. I often wonder just how true these claims by illegal aliens from Mexico that they cannot possibly return to their country are.
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Old 03-26-2009, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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No compromise. Illegal aliens are not here legally; thus, they are not entitled to a seat at our “democratic” table. We need to strictly enforce ALL of our immigration laws, and eliminate birthright citizenship. If illegals are unable to work, unable to receive freebies, and their U.S.-born children are denied citizenship, we will not have an illegal immigration problem.

We have an illegal immigration problem not because it is a “complex” issue; rather, because we fail to secure our borders and enforce our laws.
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Old 03-26-2009, 09:08 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
That's what I don't understand, why trade a laidback easy going life in company of your dear ones, for a life of very very hard work, lonelyness, etc.

Like you wisely stated my friend, is not like they are going to die or go under extreme suffering.
What I think a lot of it is is "inertia". Many come planning to return home in a short time. Packing their bags and making the journey the first time might be a mix of sadness, excitement, adventure, and homesickness.

They get here and the money is attractive. They find their community and begin to get accustomed to life here. At first they're homesick but that begins to wear off.

I think a lot is the glitter, the materialism -- things they now can buy that they couldn't before. A lot of them are from rural small villages and are impressed and learn a new kind of confidence and worldliness because they've made it to the big time. The old village starts seeming small and backward, too poor and humble.

It's like in that movie with India Maria "Ni de aqui, ni de alla" when her father tried to warn her that going to the USA would change her.

A lot of the problem is that it becomes easier to stay than to go home. In part it's the issue of illegality, the illegals decides that going home even to visit kids is too much of a hassle. They start trying to find ways to stay because they've gotten used to staying.

A better approach would be to realize that there might be some jobs in the USA that are seasonal in nature and could be good temporary jobs for people looking for a way to make it over a financial hurdle. The thing would be to have temporary workers that can't just decide they'll stay on permanently. Like Americans do when they take temporary jobs in Saudi Arabia or other countries, the goal is to get back home.

This would better guarantee that income earned would be invested in the hometown and if a legal contract could be made up front, there could be a way to ensure that families receive the financial support. It would cut out the smugglers and traffickers. There should also be guarantees that greedy employers aren't using imported labor to bring wages way down to impossible levels -- that people aren't sleeping 14 to a slum apartment floor.

The current way isn't good because if the illegal somehow smuggles in his family or abandons it, the remittances stop and there's no ultimate benefit. The best way would be for the temporary workers to continue to have a vested interest in their homeland, their village so that they will work to improve conditions -- because they know that's their future.
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Old 03-26-2009, 09:42 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
What I think a lot of it is is "inertia". Many come planning to return home in a short time. Packing their bags and making the journey the first time might be a mix of sadness, excitement, adventure, and homesickness.

They get here and the money is attractive. They find their community and begin to get accustomed to life here. At first they're homesick but that begins to wear off.

I think a lot is the glitter, the materialism -- things they now can buy that they couldn't before. A lot of them are from rural small villages and are impressed and learn a new kind of confidence and worldliness because they've made it to the big time. The old village starts seeming small and backward, too poor and humble.

It's like in that movie with India Maria "Ni de aqui, ni de alla" when her father tried to warn her that going to the USA would change her.

A lot of the problem is that it becomes easier to stay than to go home. In part it's the issue of illegality, the illegals decides that going home even to visit kids is too much of a hassle. They start trying to find ways to stay because they've gotten used to staying.

A better approach would be to realize that there might be some jobs in the USA that are seasonal in nature and could be good temporary jobs for people looking for a way to make it over a financial hurdle. The thing would be to have temporary workers that can't just decide they'll stay on permanently. Like Americans do when they take temporary jobs in Saudi Arabia or other countries, the goal is to get back home.

This would better guarantee that income earned would be invested in the hometown and if a legal contract could be made up front, there could be a way to ensure that families receive the financial support. It would cut out the smugglers and traffickers. There should also be guarantees that greedy employers aren't using imported labor to bring wages way down to impossible levels -- that people aren't sleeping 14 to a slum apartment floor.

The current way isn't good because if the illegal somehow smuggles in his family or abandons it, the remittances stop and there's no ultimate benefit. The best way would be for the temporary workers to continue to have a vested interest in their homeland, their village so that they will work to improve conditions -- because they know that's their future.
VERY good insight....I've heard ALL of this so many times...can't argue with anything you've said. "Inertia" is certainly a huge part of it, and it becomes a way of life....THEN, of course, one looks for ways to justify it. NOT a good situation at all..
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Old 03-26-2009, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,898,074 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
That's what I don't understand, why trade a laidback easy going life in company of your dear ones, for a life of very very hard work, lonelyness, etc.

Like you wisely stated my friend, is not like they are going to die or go under extreme suffering.
It's not that hard to figure out why.
Right or wrong, not everyone from Mexico is middle class.
THey must defnitely be weighing the pros vs cons when they decide to cross a desert and risk death, arrest.
Everyone:
PLEASE don't be predictable and attack this post talking about "But its wrong! rabblerabblerabble".
The discussion is about why they do it, and people assuming it's not worth it for them.
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, New York
147 posts, read 186,327 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
I just wanted to ask, posters of "both sides" of the issue, are you even open to a compromise on the complex resolution of illegal immigration? Are you willing to balance the needs of returning to a country of law-enforcement on the issue vs. humanitarian concerns? Or does each side think there viewpoint is unreconcilable.
Democracy is about compromise. If we cannot come to an agreement on the issue, on the valid concerns of all the stakeholders, then you are essentially against how democracy works. And discussion becomes near pointless.

Just my opinion, I, personally am open to compromise, however, it depends what the issue is. I don't think there is room for compromise when the issue of abiding by the law arises. I believe in this country and the rules that are implemented by it. Without them we have chaos. Look, this is by no means a perfect country, and there are things that can be handled in a diplomatic manner, that is our right. But when you bend the rules for one, how do you determine that and how do you determine who else the rules get bent for? When you talk about peoples fundamental rights, it's a slippery slope. I think we should ALL be willing to do the RIGHT thing.
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