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Old 03-27-2009, 03:06 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
Reputation: 2983

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
touche.
However, I would be just as interested in defending the rights of say, homeless, regardless of race.
Yes, race is involved. But this is also a big issue and that view of it is overly simplistic. Plus, people of my stance would think of themselves as defending those in the US (yes, illegaly) and that we want to fix this problem in a way that overcomes racism rather than buys into the culture war.
I think its also the obsession with class as well as race that drives this forum topic.
I won't argue any more...I have many hundreds of posts on this topic going back over a year, (and have been a party to this issue LONG LONG before I ever HEARD of this forum)....and am in a position, both in my background and my family life, to differentiate between any logical 'discussion' of illegal immigration, and a 'racial dispute'...I've called it "about 80% racial dispute", and possibly, you're among the other 20%, along with me and a few others.

Meanwhile, I'll use your post to make my point....WHERE, may I ask, is the forum arguing the 'rights' of the homeless?...and where is the bitter, public spectacle of any impassioned debate between the "pro-homeless" and the "anti-homeless"?

I rest my case....
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:17 PM
 
2,449 posts, read 4,672,267 times
Reputation: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I won't argue any more...I have many hundreds of posts on this topic going back over a year, (and have been a party to this issue LONG LONG before I ever HEARD of this forum)....and am in a position, both in my background and my family life, to differentiate between any logical 'discussion' of illegal immigration, and a 'racial dispute'...I've called it "about 80% racial dispute", and possibly, you're among the other 20%, along with me and a few others.

Meanwhile, I'll use your post to make my point....WHERE, may I ask, is the forum arguing the 'rights' of the homeless?...and where is the bitter, public spectacle of any impassioned debate between the "pro-homeless" and the "anti-homeless"?

I rest my case....
For one, 10% of the population isn't homeless. Also, among my friends, we do talk about this. In fact, much more than illegal immigration.
But yes, you unfortunately are overall correct. This is why illegal immigrant defenders (including me) will fall to calling anti-illegals racist. Because more often than not, they are, and we are sensitive to that. But that's its own prejudice I suppose. But many of us do see parallels to the attitudes expressed and history's previous scapegoating of various races and ethnicities for economic difficulties. Anyway, it seems I have reached my end, and I might as well let this devolve to same as the rest of the threads.
Thanks for humoring me.
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,887,954 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
If you insist on murder being even remotely comparable to illegal immigration, and if others marginally agree with this comparison, then logic cannot be appealed to.
This is the same as comparing your attitude to the holocause. Ridiculous and counter-productive analogies useful for only rhetoric.
Now it is you who fails to understand basic logic. No one is saying illegal immigration = murder. We are saying that many illegals are in fact murderers and rapists. This is fact. To say that it is a seperate issue is none sence. It is connected because they entered illegally with no back ground check. Thats why we do background checks. Granting amnesty without such checks will facilitate the criminal element. Lets also remember that every illegal is in fact a criminal. 100% of them.
Why must we compromise with those who feel our laws should not apply to them? It is upon them to adapt to us, to follow our procedures and laws. The proillegal crowd would have us believe that we owe it to the illegals to help them achieve legal status. As the spouse of a legal immigrant who obeyet the laws and followed procedures, I find this view insulting.
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:31 PM
 
2,449 posts, read 4,672,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Now it is you who fails to understand basic logic. No one is saying illegal immigration = murder. We are saying that many illegals are in fact murderers and rapists. This is fact. To say that it is a seperate issue is none sence. It is connected because they entered illegally with no back ground check. Thats why we do background checks. Granting amnesty without such checks will facilitate the criminal element. Lets also remember that every illegal is in fact a criminal. 100% of them.
Why must we compromise with those who feel our laws should not apply to them? It is upon them to adapt to us, to follow our procedures and laws. The proillegal crowd would have us believe that we owe it to the illegals to help them achieve legal status. As the spouse of a legal immigrant who obeyet the laws and followed procedures, I find this view insulting.
Who said anything about avoiding background checks?
Well, I'm sure others did. I didn't. And I'm not them.

I am also the spouse of a legal immigrant.
I grew up in a neighborhood of legal immigrants.
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:44 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,711,852 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
I'm just trying to lay the groundwork (in this board anyway) for something the least despicable to all parties involved. I don't even neccesarily think an amnesty as generous as macmeal's need to be implemented in a compromise, although I would like it to be, of course.
again, if other factors, such as the enforcement that anti-illegal immigrant individuals so justly crave, is correctly enacted simultaneous to the amnesty, then past mistakes are at a lower risk of being repeated.
You act like I'm a paid employee. I actually have no stake in this personally one way or the other.
Perhaps you would be willing to elaborate. What specific types of enforcement are you talking about? How will enforcement of these measures stop further illegal immigration? Unless you are able to effectively deter the influx of additional illegal aliens, all you will accomplish by granting amnesty will be to send a signal to future illegals that all they need to do is somehow sneak into the US in violation of our immigration laws and sit back to await the next serial amnesty.
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,887,954 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
Who said anything about avoiding background checks?
Well, I'm sure others did. I didn't. And I'm not them.

I am also the spouse of a legal immigrant.
I grew up in a neighborhood of legal immigrants.
Blue Beard I don't disagree with all of your points. I simply disagree with rewarding criminal behavior no matter what form it takes. We are a just nation of just laws. Our immigration laws are fair by any measure and even if they were not that is not the point. We have a right to determine who may enter and who may not. Just as you do in your home. Would you be so accomidating if out of the blue I took up residence in your basement? If I helped myself to your food, your spare cash, and then demanded that you adjust your life style to accomidate mine? In essence is this not what illegals are doing?
I have friends and family who have lost their trades. Not because they are lazy but because they can not compete against illegal labor.
If someone shoplifts do we compromise with them by lowering the price? By making it okay to steal only 3 items instead of 4?
They made a choice to ignore our laws, our rights and without a doubt our feelings. They made the choice to live outside of being a respectable citizen. Let them answer for this mistake and be held accountable. Just as we would any other criminal.
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Old 03-27-2009, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Actually: you must be the one who is 'lost' since most of your arguments are childish at best.

Again: face it; illegal aliens are losers by definition and they need to leave the USA.

If I were in Mexico illegally and got caught---------oh well. It certainly would not be Mx's problem/fault.
Again: I wasn't talking about illegal aliens. I was talking about a nation where only one religion and only one political ideal is allowed. I tried Bear, but that's the most plain I can put it.
If you're still coming up with Mexico and aliens from what I'm saying, well, you got beans on the brain, and I can't help you there.

...At best.
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Old 03-27-2009, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,154 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerCaliforniaGirl View Post
It never ceases to amaze me how people like you play the "Hitler" card anytime anybody dares to suggest that a country of citizens who speak a common language and share a common culture is a far more harmonious and united country.

I may scare you, but that's because you're irrationally paranoid. You need to get over it and try to accept that, whether you like it or not, people tend to clan with people like themselves. That DOES NOT MEAN they hate those unlike themselves, or they want to eliminate or persecute those unlike themselves. This is YOUR assumption, and pertaining to my feelings, you are VERY WRONG.
I CLEARLY EMPHASIZED that may main beef with your ideal nation, was that it have only one religion and most scary, only one political ideal. I even agreed that we need a common language.

I'm not irrationally paranoid at all. People that think like that are in the minority in this country these days.
I'm happy with my country.
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Old 03-27-2009, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Lake Norman, North Carolina
1,213 posts, read 1,398,109 times
Reputation: 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
I'm just trying to lay the groundwork (in this board anyway) for something the least despicable to all parties involved. I don't even neccesarily think an amnesty as generous as macmeal's need to be implemented in a compromise, although I would like it to be, of course.
again, if other factors, such as the enforcement that anti-illegal immigrant individuals so justly crave, is correctly enacted simultaneous to the amnesty, then past mistakes are at a lower risk of being repeated.
You act like I'm a paid employee. I actually have no stake in this personally one way or the other.
Amnesty peddlers alway get around to their CIR comprehensive immigration reform amnesty as the necessary coupling of the enforcement of our existing immigration laws simultaneously with giving illegal aliens amnesty, which you just backed into, whether it was on purpose or not. It's certainly a no brainer that these existing immigration laws have needed to be enforced for many decades. However, to withhold enforcement of these laws hostage unless an amnesty is thrown in is nothing more than treason. Enforcement of our immigrations laws and granting amnesty should both be able to stand alone if they both have merit, and they obviously don't. So if we hear anymore from you about coupling enforcement of existing immigration laws with a shamnesty, you will have been found out as just another amnesty peddler.
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Old 03-27-2009, 06:36 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Blue Beard I don't disagree with all of your points. I simply disagree with rewarding criminal behavior no matter what form it takes. We are a just nation of just laws. Our immigration laws are fair by any measure and even if they were not that is not the point. We have a right to determine who may enter and who may not. Just as you do in your home. Would you be so accomidating if out of the blue I took up residence in your basement? If I helped myself to your food, your spare cash, and then demanded that you adjust your life style to accomidate mine? In essence is this not what illegals are doing?
I have friends and family who have lost their trades. Not because they are lazy but because they can not compete against illegal labor.
If someone shoplifts do we compromise with them by lowering the price? By making it okay to steal only 3 items instead of 4?
They made a choice to ignore our laws, our rights and without a doubt our feelings. They made the choice to live outside of being a respectable citizen. Let them answer for this mistake and be held accountable. Just as we would any other criminal.
GREAT analogy....well stated; beyond argument.
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