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Old 04-03-2009, 11:03 AM
 
Location: in area code 919 & from 716
928 posts, read 1,205,737 times
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People are beating this topic to death ... as of yet - I don't see much discussion about SOLUTIONS.

This is basically a cry session ...
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Old 04-03-2009, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,902,935 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
California has a history of white flight? Wonderful point. So does New York City...yet one is 'hateful', while the other is 'enlightened'. Go figure.

Compton? OK, let's discuss Compton. Compton was originally a 'white' suburb..the 'flight' happened...it then became overwhelmingly black....and MORE 'flight' happened and now Compton has a Hispanic majority.

"Flight" happens. Why? Maybe for a lot of reasons. The BIGGEST white flight in the history of the world involved millions leaving Europe, for various points around the globe. Why? I don't know..but I doubt it had much to do with racism. Today we've got 'Hispanic flight' in which millions move NORTH. Why? Many reasons....but probably not due to racism.

"Flight", in my opinion, is a 'catch word'.
Youre equating European immigration to white flight?
You've always been really defensive about anyone saying anything somewhat negative about white people, but that just doesn't make sense.
You shoulda probably just went with a pun.
"I like white flight, I just hate having to take my shoes off before boarding".
Wacka wacka wacka!
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:18 PM
 
Location: The Land of Lincoln
2,522 posts, read 3,846,515 times
Reputation: 567
I'm pissed off that the new census will include counting illegals as a method by which to increase representation in Congress.
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Old 04-03-2009, 03:07 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,635,197 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Well if it occurs then it's not really a catch word. It's a term to describe a specific sociological phenomenon.

California is unique in the sense that Los Angeles went whitest large city in America (60-70% non-Hispanic White) to the most racially diverse city in the nation...in a matter of decades.

Compton was a middle class White community. Then as African Americans moved in, it became a lower middle class African American community. Whites fled en-masse bacause of fear of the unknown. They thought that if African Americans moved in, they would destroy the place. Initially, no, since it was too expensive to move to Compton. However, the glut of houses on the market, coupled with demand, led to slum lords. The fact that public funds were shifted to lighter areas of LA County did not help matters.

European colonialism is not White flight. They left for exploitation and money. So actually, it had A LOT to do with racism. (The White Highlands of Kenya? British settlers could have the good life in the Happy Valley...read up on the Mau Mau revolution, if you want a crash course on colonialism and neo-colonialism).

It's not really Hispanic flight either since the movement is not motivated on fear of the other. This is the one defining aspect of White Flight, fear/hatred of the other.

There is Black Flight and Hispanic Flight...too...it does not even have to be racially motivated. It can be socio-economic. Blacks fled Compton to Moreno Valley and Palmdale to escape poor Blacks.

BTW Compton is majority Black.
*According to the census of 2000, Compton at that time was 40% Black....56% Hispanic (of various races)....

*Yes, I'm familiar with "black flight"...my black god-daughter and her parents fled Compton for Corona precisely, as you say, to 'escape poor blacks'..

*I'm familiar, too with White Kenyans..from what I hear, a rather inbred, hard-drinking lot..but hardly typical of anything else.... but white Kenyans. Meanwhile, from what I hear, BLACK Kenyans are having their share of troubles, as well. And some of THEM are 'fleeing', too. Go figure.

*I also, in my own extended family, have several examples of "Hispanic flight"....the usual story...trying to flee 'the barrio', and improve the prospects for the family's future....but of course, as you say, that's not "fear of the other"..since ALL Hispanics are used to crime and disorder, and ought to be 'comfortable' around it..right? Only Whites can "fear" what they don't approve of..am I getting this right? So when Blacks or Hispanics flee crime, it's for GOOD reasons...when whites flee crime, it's because they "fear the other". Got it...

* for SOME reason, you seem to be perfectly comfortable with ALL these 'flights', unless whites are involved...at which point, 'flight' is automatically assigned to 'racist motives' and apparently little else..(?)

*If you equate ALL emigration out of Europe to one cause, "colonialism", then I expect there's little else to say, except that I disagree. Poor Europeans left Europe over several centuries, "fleeing" any number of things, for many scattered points across the globe....if that's 'colonialism', and nothing else, then so be it. I disagree.

Last edited by macmeal; 04-03-2009 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 04-03-2009, 03:27 PM
 
3,859 posts, read 9,187,173 times
Reputation: 2728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Duck View Post
People are beating this topic to death ... as of yet - I don't see much discussion about SOLUTIONS.

This is basically a cry session ...

Solutions? Seal the border, enforce immigration laws-including using E-verify and make sure illegal aliens are not receving any welfare or other taxpayer funded assistance. You know-the things that were promised when they put through the last amnesty. If we did that, most would self-deport.
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Old 04-03-2009, 03:55 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,635,197 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Again the original question, to which I responded related to why Californians have a hatred to illegal immigrants, specifically Hispanics. I noted the one unique factor to California. Our fascination with Spain and our dislike of Mexico (in a historical context). There are many other reasons that illegal immigrants are disliked, however, this historical perspective is somewhat unique to California and the SW in general.

Think of house. The paint on the stucco is the newest part of theOur attitudes would be different, however, if this past were somehow different. (To which degree, I don't know) There would still be other facets to contend with, though,
OK, so we're FASCINATED by our romantic Spanish history, and we REJECT the cloddish, provincial influence of Mexico....right? OK, guilty....It may interest you to know that until very recent times, we (US culture) were ALSO fascinated by 'continental' (or British) culture, and rejected our OWN cloddish, backward culture!! That's right, WE liked the 'snobs' better than we liked OURSELVES!

Ever watch an old American drama (movie)? Say one from the 1920's to 1940's? The 'upper crust' always spoke in a stuffy, 'pseudo-British' accent, while the 'bumpkins' (working class Americans) spoke 'normally'. The fact is, America was fascinated by European culture, and downplayed its own.

Want to hear something even WEIRDER? Until VERY recent times MEXICO (and Latin America in general) did the SAME THING!...They elevated Spanish culture to an extreme, downplaying and soft-pedaling...(or completely denying).any "local" contributions. White Europeans were "in"...local Indians were "out". In Mexico, 'help wanted' ads in store windows often specifed 'good appearance'....(read that to mean 'not too Indian-looking, please').

So this is news? We 'value' the contributions of Spain, yet dismiss the contributions of Mexico? Imagine THAT..particularly since Mexico does the same THING!

Meanwhile, what in the WORLD does any of this have to do with illegal immigration? Affects our 'attitude'? OK, perhaps....but illegal immigration is STILL illegal, regardless of our (or anyone else's) 'attitude'. I could say the same thing in the opposite context...that the ILLEGALS' attitude toward their own illegality is affected by their 'rejecton' of European notions such as the importance of 'law' over family ties and 'ethnic rights'....but I won't....we've been over THAT point ad nauseum.

So I get your point..but must tell you it's not a very relevant issue in this discussion. Illegal immigration is a CRIME...(albeit a non-violent one), not a 'value' or a 'lifestyle'...or a 'cultural attribute'....and if people can't understand that, perhaps that's indicative of the problems of multiculturalism "gone mad", in which one person's 'wrong' becomes another person's "right", and nobody's qualified to pass judgement. You give ME an example of ANY society anywhere on Earth where THAT idea would work for very long....
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
850 posts, read 1,339,033 times
Reputation: 704
If you come here and want to work, get legalized the right way, pay your feels, take your tests and do what each state requires to be an american citizen. My mother works US Immigration and says anyone that does this has a right to be here. To come here illegally gets no sympathy from me.
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
608 posts, read 792,643 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Duck View Post
People are beating this topic to death ... as of yet - I don't see much discussion about SOLUTIONS.

This is basically a cry session ...
Lord knows we need somewhere to vent our frustrations! However, there are viable solutions to illegal immigration...ENFORCE the LAWS!!! As tons of others have mentioned all too many times, increase border security, enforce labor laws, end the "anchor baby exception", fine the hell out of employers that hire illegals, don't allow illegals or their children access to public education and healthcare, etc. Don't give these criminals anything and they won't be willing to come! For some reason most people seem to get this...except the federal government!
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Old 04-03-2009, 08:04 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,086,580 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
*According to the census of 2000, Compton at that time was 40% Black....56% Hispanic (of various races)....

*Yes, I'm familiar with "black flight"...my black god-daughter and her parents fled Compton for Corona precisely, as you say, to 'escape poor blacks'..

*I'm familiar, too with White Kenyans..from what I hear, a rather inbred, hard-drinking lot..but hardly typical of anything else.... but white Kenyans. Meanwhile, from what I hear, BLACK Kenyans are having their share of troubles, as well. And some of THEM are 'fleeing', too. Go figure.

*I also, in my own extended family, have several examples of "Hispanic flight"....the usual story...trying to flee 'the barrio', and improve the prospects for the family's future....but of course, as you say, that's not "fear of the other"..since ALL Hispanics are used to crime and disorder, and ought to be 'comfortable' around it..right? Only Whites can "fear" what they don't approve of..am I getting this right? So when Blacks or Hispanics flee crime, it's for GOOD reasons...when whites flee crime, it's because they "fear the other". Got it...

* for SOME reason, you seem to be perfectly comfortable with ALL these 'flights', unless whites are involved...at which point, 'flight' is automatically assigned to 'racist motives' and apparently little else..(?)

*If you equate ALL emigration out of Europe to one cause, "colonialism", then I expect there's little else to say, except that I disagree. Poor Europeans left Europe over several centuries, "fleeing" any number of things, for many scattered points across the globe....if that's 'colonialism', and nothing else, then so be it. I disagree.
Fine you got me...Compton has slightly more Hispanics...

Okay, I like Corona, nice town. Parents almost moved to Tuscany Hills (Lake Elsinore) or in the Temescal Valley.

Again, you seem never to read my post. Flight is about fear, regardless of race. I used "fear of the other" I did state that for Whites, it's typically racial in nature (White flight is more racial in nature). It's just the fact of the matter. Nothing more nothing less.

Again, read about Mau Mau. Also the displacing of Kenyans off tribal lands, much like here in the US. Also, they were not really inbred, like US British colonial settlers many were landed gentry.

I'm half White. The half I'm closest with is White. No, I'm not really okay with flights in general. I have no idea where you came up with this. This is again your misreading or misinterpretation (which there seems to be a really high number of). I think that we should have more economically and racially integrated neighborhoods. At least a gradaition (poor and middle class, middle class and rich...if not an all out mix). This is the latest urban development model (Think the new Cabrini Green).

No, I obviously don't equate all immigration out of Europe a colonialism. I guess this time I misunderstood you (the various points around the world part kind of got me tripped up). However, still it's not really flight. Flight, again is predicated more on fear of the other. Not economic hardship. Flight typically is when one has more resources or is in a position of relatively higher standing. The fleeing party is fearful of the other changing the quality of life, or worse theft. Thus, the party flees. Europeans immigrating to different places were not fleeing because they had more. On the contrary, they left because they had less.

My family, on my dad's side is apart of the German Jewish diaspora as well as the Irish diaspora. The mass immigration is more of a diaspora. Flight=rich/relatively higher in society leaving, diaspora=mass immigration typically for a better life.
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Old 04-03-2009, 08:25 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,086,580 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
OK, so we're FASCINATED by our romantic Spanish history, and we REJECT the cloddish, provincial influence of Mexico....right? OK, guilty....It may interest you to know that until very recent times, we (US culture) were ALSO fascinated by 'continental' (or British) culture, and rejected our OWN cloddish, backward culture!! That's right, WE liked the 'snobs' better than we liked OURSELVES!

Ever watch an old American drama (movie)? Say one from the 1920's to 1940's? The 'upper crust' always spoke in a stuffy, 'pseudo-British' accent, while the 'bumpkins' (working class Americans) spoke 'normally'. The fact is, America was fascinated by European culture, and downplayed its own.

Want to hear something even WEIRDER? Until VERY recent times MEXICO (and Latin America in general) did the SAME THING!...They elevated Spanish culture to an extreme, downplaying and soft-pedaling...(or completely denying).any "local" contributions. White Europeans were "in"...local Indians were "out". In Mexico, 'help wanted' ads in store windows often specifed 'good appearance'....(read that to mean 'not too Indian-looking, please').

So this is news? We 'value' the contributions of Spain, yet dismiss the contributions of Mexico? Imagine THAT..particularly since Mexico does the same THING!

Meanwhile, what in the WORLD does any of this have to do with illegal immigration? Affects our 'attitude'? OK, perhaps....but illegal immigration is STILL illegal, regardless of our (or anyone else's) 'attitude'. I could say the same thing in the opposite context...that the ILLEGALS' attitude toward their own illegality is affected by their 'rejecton' of European notions such as the importance of 'law' over family ties and 'ethnic rights'....but I won't....we've been over THAT point ad nauseum.

So I get your point..but must tell you it's not a very relevant issue in this discussion. Illegal immigration is a CRIME...(albeit a non-violent one), not a 'value' or a 'lifestyle'...or a 'cultural attribute'....and if people can't understand that, perhaps that's indicative of the problems of multiculturalism "gone mad", in which one person's 'wrong' becomes another person's "right", and nobody's qualified to pass judgement. You give ME an example of ANY society anywhere on Earth where THAT idea would work for very long....
The Americans settlers coming into California were trying to sell land to other Americans. Thus, much of the ad print concerning California was more Europhilic in nature. Obiviously Californians would not sell British heritage. Also, in many of those old films many of the British people, as you described, were caricatures. In the end, the good ol' American boy was the hero. Americans, since the mid 1850s (like most of Europe), became extremely nationalistic. By WWI, nationalism was in full force. However, California having been just acquired very recently, needed a marketing mystique. That mystique would be link to Spain. Hence, why today, Santa Barbara has Moorish architecture in downtown (the original downtown looked more like a western film set, most of downtown's Santa Barbara's Spanish buildings were built after the quake that destroyed the town.) Marketers in Santa Barbara wanted to create a Spanish playground in California.

Actually no. Latin America and Mexico were trying to be on par with European countries during the 1800s-early 1900s. Hence why they sought independence. Argentinians, even though White, were not Spanish...they were Argentinians. Americans in California had an obsession with Spain. Not with the Mexico. See the distinction? Wanting to erase or downplay a past (California) whereas Latin Americans were still continuing a racial/cultural legacy, but were nationalistic. Slight nuance, but helps frame the debate. BTW tell a Mexican person that Castillian Spanish is better. It won't be pretty.

Okay...the last paragraph is really odd and off base on so many levels. Americans say Mexico as lower. Thus, any association with Mexico is "bad" (qualitative term). This affected the frame work with the immigration debate. You use the term "illegal" like it's a moral absolute. It's not. Man makes laws. Laws are existent in all societies (rejecting laws is also done on behalf of Europeans...it's not just a non-European thing). By even your stating that they reject Europeans by rejecting laws is somewhat showing a Europhile/ Western-phile bias. Mexico is technically apart of the West (not industrialized, but still Western in culture and tradition). Thus, your statement is a contradiction. Previous associations about Mexico frame some of the debate.
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