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Old 04-02-2009, 07:30 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post

<snip>

Or, we can make it easier to cross legally (screening process required, but a much easier time for those that qualify. Instead of taking months or years, it can be a lot quicker). If we process them quicker and cheaper, this will cut down on the number of illegal border crossings, while allowing a minimal police force element at the border (not the armies and walls others have proposed. My cousin lives down in Chula Vista, CA...I don't think she wants a police state in her suburban Chula Vista home).
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe there should be some restrictions on 1) who it is that is allowed into the US and 2) how many people are allowed in? IMO, the end result of your scenario will be tens of millions more unskilled, uneducated, impoverished people from south of the border flooding into the US once we open the border and streamline the immigration process. Prove me wrong. Tell me why this would not happen.

<snip>

Quote:
We need to be respond to the increase demand of people wanting to come into our nation. We need to plan for the infrastructure to hold them and us. We need to decrease waste to have the money to have that infrastructure to suppoert the increased needs. We need to also be socially aware and realize that just because a culture is slightly different, doesn't mean it's bad. We need to realize that being smart means not instilling fear or hatred. Some people on this board are truly anti-illegal immigration. I can respect that. Others are just racist. I know that there is a distinction, but to those that are racist...do they?
I'm going to call you out on this one. No, we most assuredly do not need to respond to the increased demand of people wanting to come to the US.
The immigration policy of any nation is set up in a way that benefits the citizens of that country. When Canada formalized their immigration policy, their goal was to permit immigration within limits that would benefit the Canadian people. It is probably easier for an MD to emigrate to Canada than it is for a ditch digger because the Canadian people will be helped by having an extra physician in the country whereas they can hire one of their own citizens to dig ditches. I strongly suspect France's immigration policies are geared towards what would be best for the citizens of France. Italy's policies are designed to be beneficial to Italians, etc. It matters not one iota if people want to come to the US. If allowing them to come here places an unfair burden on American citizens then they should not be allowed in.


Quote:
First off, who is losing jobs from illegal immigrants? How did the lowest unemployment rate at the height of the illegal immigration boom equate to loosing jobs? If history serves correct, we had the lowest unemployment rate during the peak of illega immigration. We have high unemployment rates now. This is due to the economic climate. People hire the most qualified at the best price. It's simply economics.
Construction workers lost jobs left and right. The illegals they were replaced with typically did not know squat about building a home or anything else for that matter. They were hardly 'the most qualified', they were simply the cheapest. Talk to anyone who has to go in and repair some of these brand new homes that are already falling apart. They can tell you all about the quality of the workmanship done by the illegals.

Quote:
Making our country more welcoming has the benefits of reducing future welfare. We should decrease overhead and steamline in a bad economy and put our funds towards things that pay dividends back in the future...not things that will drain us and not give anything back to our nation.
How exactly is making our country more welcoming going to reduce future welfare? Be specific, please.

Quote:
I think that yes there will be an increase in immigration, however, I also do believe that given the time and money it takes (as you know) to uproot your entire life for another country would still deter people.
From the looks of things, it does not seem to be deterring people now.

Quote:
Essentially, the free market, in a way, would determine movement (just like it does on a local level). However, with this system, efforts would be made to increase educational attainment.
Are you talking about restricting immigration to people with higher levels of education or spending money to educate people with limited schooling once they are here?

Quote:
The truth of the matter is, not everyone will come. Simply because of the up front costs to leave (it costs way more to live here than in Mexico...rent is much more expensive in California than across the border).
None of this has deterred millions of overwhelmingly uneducated, unskilled people from finding their way into the US.

Someone with a valuable job skill who wishes to emigrate to the US will stop and consider the situation carefully- after all, they may own property in their homeland, they will need to speak fluent English, they may have to undergo recertification in their line of work in order to be employed in the US and so on. What is going to be holding back some guy south of the border with a 7th grade education, a large family and no assets? He doesn't exactly need to call North American Van Lines to move, he will be doing the exact same manual labor in the US that he is doing in his home country, what is going to stop him from heading for the border? And once he is in, under your new immigration policy, he can begin to partake of all the goodies that life in the US has to offer! Free education for his kids, the family will qualify for free health care, free housing assistance, government provided interpreters when needed, clean water, good roads to drive on- woohoo!- who wouldn't pack up and head for El Norte?!


Quote:
Thus, some aid would be provided. However, I envision more work based aid. Welfare that is more job placement and training, than simply checks. So the condition to recieve your welfare check is that you must be enrolled in classes to aid in assimilation/job placement. This welfare would be minimal, since it is designed to aid those to obtain gainful employment, not to serve as an incentive to simply live on welfare.
You are aware that millions of Americans are out of work? That 770,000 people lost their jobs last month? That one in ten Americans needs help putting food on the table for their family? Where is all the money for job placement, welfare, etc. for all the new immigrants you have just admitted going to come from? Where are jobs for them going to come from?

Quote:
I just see the ordeals my mother had to go through and think that there has to be a better way.
We are supposed to throw the gates wide open because you feel your mother was unduly inconvenienced by the immigration process?
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,075 posts, read 1,774,015 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe there should be some restrictions on 1) who it is that is allowed into the US and 2) how many people are allowed in? IMO, the end result of your scenario will be tens of millions more unskilled, uneducated, impoverished people from south of the border flooding into the US once we open the border and streamline the immigration process. Prove me wrong. Tell me why this would not happen.

<snip>



I'm going to call you out on this one. No, we most assuredly do not need to respond to the increased demand of people wanting to come to the US.
The immigration policy of any nation is set up in a way that benefits the citizens of that country. When Canada formalized their immigration policy, their goal was to permit immigration within limits that would benefit the Canadian people. It is probably easier for an MD to emigrate to Canada than it is for a ditch digger because the Canadian people will be helped by having an extra physician in the country whereas they can hire one of their own citizens to dig ditches. I strongly suspect France's immigration policies are geared towards what would be best for the citizens of France. Italy's policies are designed to be beneficial to Italians, etc. It matters not one iota if people want to come to the US. If allowing them to come here places an unfair burden on American citizens then they should not be allowed in.




Construction workers lost jobs left and right. The illegals they were replaced with typically did not know squat about building a home or anything else for that matter. They were hardly 'the most qualified', they were simply the cheapest. Talk to anyone who has to go in and repair some of these brand new homes that are already falling apart. They can tell you all about the quality of the workmanship done by the illegals.



How exactly is making our country more welcoming going to reduce future welfare? Be specific, please.



From the looks of things, it does not seem to be deterring people now.



Are you talking about restricting immigration to people with higher levels of education or spending money to educate people with limited schooling once they are here?



None of this has deterred millions of overwhelmingly uneducated, unskilled people from finding their way into the US.

Someone with a valuable job skill who wishes to emigrate to the US will stop and consider the situation carefully- after all, they may own property in their homeland, they will need to speak fluent English, they may have to undergo recertification in their line of work in order to be employed in the US and so on. What is going to be holding back some guy south of the border with a 7th grade education, a large family and no assets? He doesn't exactly need to call North American Van Lines to move, he will be doing the exact same manual labor in the US that he is doing in his home country, what is going to stop him from heading for the border? And once he is in, under your new immigration policy, he can begin to partake of all the goodies that life in the US has to offer! Free education for his kids, the family will qualify for free health care, free housing assistance, government provided interpreters when needed, clean water, good roads to drive on- woohoo!- who wouldn't pack up and head for El Norte?!




You are aware that millions of Americans are out of work? That 770,000 people lost their jobs last month? That one in ten Americans needs help putting food on the table for their family? Where is all the money for job placement, welfare, etc. for all the new immigrants you have just admitted going to come from? Where are jobs for them going to come from?



We are supposed to throw the gates wide open because you feel your mother was unduly inconvenienced by the immigration process?
What can I say to that !! All I can think of is "DITTO" that! Great post!

Last edited by jjwebbster; 04-02-2009 at 08:02 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:08 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjwebbster View Post
What can I say to that !! All I can think of is "DITTO" that! Great post!
I agree....GREAT post, Andreabeth...well-stated, well thought out.
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:01 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe there should be some restrictions on 1) who it is that is allowed into the US and 2) how many people are allowed in? IMO, the end result of your scenario will be tens of millions more unskilled, uneducated, impoverished people from south of the border flooding into the US once we open the border and streamline the immigration process. Prove me wrong. Tell me why this would not happen.

<snip>



I'm going to call you out on this one. No, we most assuredly do not need to respond to the increased demand of people wanting to come to the US.
The immigration policy of any nation is set up in a way that benefits the citizens of that country. When Canada formalized their immigration policy, their goal was to permit immigration within limits that would benefit the Canadian people. It is probably easier for an MD to emigrate to Canada than it is for a ditch digger because the Canadian people will be helped by having an extra physician in the country whereas they can hire one of their own citizens to dig ditches. I strongly suspect France's immigration policies are geared towards what would be best for the citizens of France. Italy's policies are designed to be beneficial to Italians, etc. It matters not one iota if people want to come to the US. If allowing them to come here places an unfair burden on American citizens then they should not be allowed in.




Construction workers lost jobs left and right. The illegals they were replaced with typically did not know squat about building a home or anything else for that matter. They were hardly 'the most qualified', they were simply the cheapest. Talk to anyone who has to go in and repair some of these brand new homes that are already falling apart. They can tell you all about the quality of the workmanship done by the illegals.



How exactly is making our country more welcoming going to reduce future welfare? Be specific, please.



From the looks of things, it does not seem to be deterring people now.



Are you talking about restricting immigration to people with higher levels of education or spending money to educate people with limited schooling once they are here?



None of this has deterred millions of overwhelmingly uneducated, unskilled people from finding their way into the US.

Someone with a valuable job skill who wishes to emigrate to the US will stop and consider the situation carefully- after all, they may own property in their homeland, they will need to speak fluent English, they may have to undergo recertification in their line of work in order to be employed in the US and so on. What is going to be holding back some guy south of the border with a 7th grade education, a large family and no assets? He doesn't exactly need to call North American Van Lines to move, he will be doing the exact same manual labor in the US that he is doing in his home country, what is going to stop him from heading for the border? And once he is in, under your new immigration policy, he can begin to partake of all the goodies that life in the US has to offer! Free education for his kids, the family will qualify for free health care, free housing assistance, government provided interpreters when needed, clean water, good roads to drive on- woohoo!- who wouldn't pack up and head for El Norte?!




You are aware that millions of Americans are out of work? That 770,000 people lost their jobs last month? That one in ten Americans needs help putting food on the table for their family? Where is all the money for job placement, welfare, etc. for all the new immigrants you have just admitted going to come from? Where are jobs for them going to come from?



We are supposed to throw the gates wide open because you feel your mother was unduly inconvenienced by the immigration process?
1) No, there shouldn't be more restrictions. Less. What do you propose, like the Australian policies of 1924? We do have a cheap labor shortage is this nation. The free market will influence decisions. Just like has it has and always will. More restrictions will result in more cost to enforce.
The result will not just be the poor huddled masses. Since the cost is the driving factor on whether a person moves or not, we actually do not see the poorest of the poor. Don't get me wrong, we see poor people...but rarely the poorest of society. Also there is the brain drain phenomenon. This def. would be greater IMO with those leaving Africa (It is too hard even with a college degree to migrate to Europe from Africa). So I guess, why it would not happen is because $$$ and the fact that brain drain would counter balance.

2). Yeah we kind of do. This one takes a little thought, but follow it through. We can actually try to ease in an era of free movement. France's policies are highly racist (no seriously, they are racist. The French Embassy told my cousin, a lawyer, that France does not need another kaffar (n-word) at the Sorbonne). Jean Marie Le Pen anyone? With the resources that we have, we can manage to accomodate immigrants. Guest worker program? Plus, also, in order to remain competitive in the world market, we do need cheap labor. Americans are expensive and feel more entitled. Jobs get shipped off. If a middle ground is met (think Toyota vs. GM in terms of employ pay...Toyota being cheaper, yet not unreasonable) and the lower jobs are filled then we can be more competitive.

3). I lived in the fastest growing city in the US. There are 3 construction company managers that live on my parent's street. I know the construction biz VERY well (that's what happens when you grew up in the inland empire). These houses are built shoddily mostly by cheap materials. All tract homes (doesn't matter the time period) are built poorly. That's how you turn a profit. Buy cheap materials and build quickly. It isn't rocket science to build a house. Framing is pretty easy. I helped frame a few houses. I think an illegal immigrant can nail two pieces of wood together. Dry walling is not hard either. The hardest part is plumbing and electrical. You typically are trained for these two.

4). Investing in education of immigrants and their children. Making more vocational programs and university/community college outreach programs. It's an investment towards giving the tools needed to achieve economic success. You are enabling them to become apart of the middle class.

5). Well, the free market is pushing people back South. No jobs here, they move back. It's pretty simple.

6). We should educate those with less education who are here. My mom is can't read too well, yet she is fluent in English. She tried taking classes to teach her to read, but they were subpar (the instructors would not take their job seriously). My dad was busy working, and my mom would work weekends. There needs to be more adult education programs that actually produce results. If a person wants to learn to better themselves, why deny that? This again will lead for more opportunities for that person and also less of a reliance on the actual welfare system. Fortunately for my mom, we're financially okay. We can hire people if either me, my brother, my dad, or friends are unavailable.

7). Economic collapse has dettered people. And yes, many have not come beacause of up front costs. Simply saying it hasn't isn't true.

8). Well, the worst county hit in job losses was Imperial County. El Centro, CA is the hardest hit city in the nation. Counties with large number of immigrants were the hardest hit. There is also a trillion dollar stimulus package that is being pushed. I think some job placement, that also will help our citizens...again something that will also help our citizens...again REFORM THAT WILL HELP OUR CITIZENS!!! will be a good thing. Instead of walls, or more bureaucrats, or guards on the border. We can put money towards things that will make more of an impact. Education, reformation of welfare, and health. These are things that will also help American citizens, as well as immigrants. We will not be in a recession forever. This is not going to take one day. So yeah, jobs will be there. These jobs can also include infrastructure works, re-sodding the great lawns...etc...but also private jobs that will be made available once the economy picks up. Again, it's not like there will only be a certain number of jobs an no more jobs will ever be created.

7). No, but I see that it's not an isolated incident. I see that the current system is not working. I see that shutting down the borders completely and having ridiculous restrictions will not work as well.

I think I got everything.
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Again: the USA does not illegal aliens.

If we are that damn helpless as a nation----------------we do not deserve to live as one.
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:30 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Again: the USA does not illegal aliens.

If we are that damn helpless as a nation----------------we do not deserve to live as one.
?
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Old 04-03-2009, 02:43 AM
 
30 posts, read 56,572 times
Reputation: 28
I live in NYC, the most ethnically diverse city in this country. NYC does not have this deep rooted hatred for immigrants that I see on this forum and in Texas/California. I have no idea how these states reached a point where unfounded hate lives within them. I say unfounded because I hear stories all the time from legal Hispanics on the West Coast who say life is hard these days because people make snide comments to them before they even know if they are legal or not. Trust me, I understand all of your grievances. I really do. What I don't understand is the emotion of hatred. I mean really a bird can fly over your head and someone will make a thread on this forum BIRD POOPED ON ME: THANKS ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! Hatred is the scariest emotion a human being can have because it forces people to do irrational things.
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Old 04-03-2009, 02:51 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,541,451 times
Reputation: 5210
illegal aliens are criminals, employers who employ them should be fined BIG and spend a year or so in jail. Illegal aliens should be charged with a felony and spend 1 day in jail for their crime and sent home after that day.

why the felony and day in jail, then they cannot apply for citizenship after that like those immigrants who have taken the time to get theirs legally.
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Old 04-03-2009, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by fashionaddict View Post
I live in NYC, the most ethnically diverse city in this country. NYC does not have this deep rooted hatred for immigrants that I see on this forum and in Texas/California. I have no idea how these states reached a point where unfounded hate lives within them. I say unfounded because I hear stories all the time from legal Hispanics on the West Coast who say life is hard these days because people make snide comments to them before they even know if they are legal or not. Trust me, I understand all of your grievances. I really do. What I don't understand is the emotion of hatred. I mean really a bird can fly over your head and someone will make a thread on this forum BIRD POOPED ON ME: THANKS ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! Hatred is the scariest emotion a human being can have because it forces people to do irrational things.
Yeppers; the illegal liens; most of whom happen to be Mestizo Hispanics, by their mere presence have essentially ruined the rep of those who played it by the rules let alone US citizens.
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Old 04-03-2009, 07:29 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by fashionaddict View Post
I live in NYC, the most ethnically diverse city in this country. NYC does not have this deep rooted hatred for immigrants that I see on this forum and in Texas/California. I have no idea how these states reached a point where unfounded hate lives within them. I say unfounded because I hear stories all the time from legal Hispanics on the West Coast who say life is hard these days because people make snide comments to them before they even know if they are legal or not. Trust me, I understand all of your grievances. I really do. What I don't understand is the emotion of hatred. I mean really a bird can fly over your head and someone will make a thread on this forum BIRD POOPED ON ME: THANKS ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! Hatred is the scariest emotion a human being can have because it forces people to do irrational things.
Well, Los Angeles was at one time the least racially diverse big city in the United States. It was actually among the most conservative as well. Here in California, acknowledgement of our Mexican past is virtually non-existant. For the most part, we histortically glorify our Spanish colonial past more. This is evidenced by the Mission Inn (the Spanish Art Gallery at the Mission Inn), Santa Barbara's Old Spanish Day's Fiesta, old real estate posters depicting California as the land of European looking Spanish settlers. In reality, the majority were Mestizo settlers (some Chinos even as well...but not nearly as many Criollos). The first wave of Americans in California were primarilly from the North East. Thus, depict California as a place where beautiful Spanish women eat oranges on a sunny veranda...and the rest will follow. California later had a large Southern contingent as well. Southerners following a more racially segregated pov, helped also shape the debate of Mexicans in California.

I really don't know too much about Texas...but I do know that there was animosity all the way back from the Republic of Texas.

You see, the way that California entered into the Union was by no means fair. American biz interests in California were conflicting with Mexican political interests. Americans told rich Californios that they will be able to make more money if they help create the Bear Flag Republic. Well, what ended up happening was that all of the sudden they lost their lands and wealth. Some were even deported.

So there is a love/hate relationship in California with our Mexican past. But we love our Spanish European past more.
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