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Old 04-01-2009, 05:35 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,303,557 times
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If you keep arguing about amnesty / no amnesty we will just miss the point of the OP.

I don't want to start deleting posts, so please let's give people who support illegals a chance to state why

There is another thread where people is stating their reasons why they are against any amnesty.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,897,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
If you keep arguing about amnesty / no amnesty we will just miss the point of the OP.

I don't want to start deleting posts, so please let's give people who support illegals a chance to state why

There is another thread where people is stating their reasons why they are against any amnesty.
Actually I have not seen a post stating why anyone supports illegals. I was interested to see what they had to say and just maybe get an understanding of their views. Too bad it didn't happen.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:33 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,303,557 times
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Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Actually I have not seen a post stating why anyone supports illegals. I was interested to see what they had to say and just maybe get an understanding of their views. Too bad it didn't happen.
Me too, I guess I'll post something.

I became interested in immigration because of my job, I have to travel a lot and work in other countries, because of this I've made a lot of friends from all over the world, and learnt a couple of languages as well... These experiences made me dream of world unity and then the thought of borders and the idea of us vs them became nonsensical to me, back then I thought it was unfair that only a few selected group of people were able to immigrate between countries with few restrictions, while the rest of the world's population has either to stay where they are forever or resort to illegal immigration, while having these thoughts and researching in the internet, I found this forum, then after exchanging ideas with the members here I understood their reasons of why immigration is restricted, and the reasons of the people who oppose it.

Yet I still believe that the reason why this world is so divided is because we are a bunch of slaves of our own egoes... All of us, we are petty and selfish, it is very easy to create artificial divisions of us vs them, but very hard to destroy them, besides that we are ignorant, we believe that material things will bring happiness, that the purpose of life is to accumulate material wealth, power, success, fame, so we keep chasing them and feeling unhappy most of the time because we don't have them thinking that when we'll get them we'll become happy, some people manage to obtain them only to discover that they still feel unfulfilled, these uneasy feeling of unfullfillment leads to frustration, frustration leads to hate and hate leads to divisions, instead of striving to appease hate, or the feelings of superiority or inferiority, or the feelings of us vs them, we become so entangled in them that we generate all the unfairnesses and unequalities of the world. Yet deep within us, there is something beautiful, something sacred, something that can bring everlasting happiness, and world unity, that is our soul, our higher being, our connection with everything and everyone, yet most of us ignore this and keep seeking outside.

We are now collecting the debts of all this ignorance, the economic crisis, the latest wars, the floods of illegal immigrants in "developed" countries and untold amounts of human suffering, yet we haven't learnt the lesson and continue looking for more of all this.

Quote:
Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox.
Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves.

``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased.
``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased.

Hate is not overcome by hate; by Love alone is hate appeased. This is an eternal law.
The others know not that in this quarrel we perish; those of them who realise it, have their quarrels calmed thereby.
That said, I'm against illegal immigration, but not in the way you might think, I'm against the fact that immigration is illegal, but I know that the only way for it to become legal someday is when we all learn these simple and practical spiritual truths, we have to be the change that we want to see in this world, and we can't wait for leaders to start. Love is the light that will dissolve all barriers between People, Families and Nations.

So we have this forum, a tool to become more sensitive to the "other side" viewpoint, a tool to propose solutions, to make friends, to create brigdes, to solve problems, it is up to us if we use them for these elevated purpose, or we use them in the opposite way.

Love and Light!
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:06 PM
 
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In my ideal world, the global north and global south economic divide would not exist. In my ideal world, immigration would be as easy as moving from one city to another. We can slowly bridge these inequalities globally by enforcing fair trade laws, forming an international coalition for a global standards of education (think of the IB Programme, but intermixed with the political clout of the UN, and the funding of the first world), giving more powers to the WHO (World Health Organization), and trying to build sustainable middle class communities around the world. Greed and rampant nationalism breed these inequalities which create the situation we face. We helped crafted an ineffectual Mexico (our threatening to take over Mexico City, our outright taking away of Mexican territory in the West, our dollars that fuel their corruption). We also helped create the global south. Now, in the 21st century, we must at least take some steps to integrate the global south and the global north so that we can achieve economic parity across the world.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:55 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,624,231 times
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Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
In my ideal world, the global north and global south economic divide would not exist. In my ideal world, immigration would be as easy as moving from one city to another. We can slowly bridge these inequalities globally by enforcing fair trade laws, forming an international coalition for a global standards of education (think of the IB Programme, but intermixed with the political clout of the UN, and the funding of the first world), giving more powers to the WHO (World Health Organization), and trying to build sustainable middle class communities around the world. Greed and rampant nationalism breed these inequalities which create the situation we face. We helped crafted an ineffectual Mexico (our threatening to take over Mexico City, our outright taking away of Mexican territory in the West, our dollars that fuel their corruption). We also helped create the global south. Now, in the 21st century, we must at least take some steps to integrate the global south and the global north so that we can achieve economic parity across the world.
Here's the biggest obstacle to your dream.....the vast majority of Americans, (I'm sure I'm safe in saying this) have little confidence in achieving 'economic parity' with Sri Lanka, or Chad, or Bolivia, or Angola, or Albania...or any NUMBER of other places. Your 'dream' may appeal to those in the more backward regions of the Third World....and who can blame them? But HERE..I'm afraid the vast majority of us fear that any 'economic parity' that took place, would involve the USA descending closer to Third World levels, rather than the opposite

It's EASY to bring a place 'down'....while EXCEEDINGLY difficult to bring a place 'up'..for any number of reasons....including culture. The 'system' in the First World encourages growth....while in the Third World, 'the System' is often the reason for poverty. Are YOU going to tell people to change their culture? Good luck with THAT!
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,824,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Here's the biggest obstacle to your dream.....the vast majority of Americans, (I'm sure I'm safe in saying this) have little confidence in achieving 'economic parity' with Sri Lanka, or Chad, or Bolivia, or Angola, or Albania...or any NUMBER of other places. Your 'dream' may appeal to those in the more backward regions of the Third World....and who can blame them? But HERE..I'm afraid the vast majority of us fear that any 'economic parity' that took place, would involve the USA descending closer to Third World levels, rather than the opposite

It's EASY to bring a place 'down'....while EXCEEDINGLY difficult to bring a place 'up'..for any number of reasons....including culture. The 'system' in the First World encourages growth....while in the Third World, 'the System' is often the reason for poverty. Are YOU going to tell people to change their culture? Good luck with THAT!
How true. Itís similar to if Bill Gates agreed to consolidate his assets with those of a welfare mother, and they would have equal access to the funds. It would be a great deal for her, but he would be totally screwed.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:22 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,303,557 times
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I guess you both stated in your posts a big reason of the existence of illegal immigration.

This is the reason why it becomes something so emotional and hard to discuss, and why some people don't think it twice on breaking the law and just break in, I doubt they do it with the evil intention of screwing those who live in affluent countries, yet those things happen as a result of massive numbers of immigrants arriving without any control.

And precisely because of this, perhaps those resources spent on welfare, handouts and stupid wars, could be put to much better use helping those countries who need that help, but then we have the problem of corruption, but I guess that there is corruption also in the handouts given and specially the wars fought, it is sad indeed that for every penny spent in foreign aid, millions of dollars are spent on invasions, or support of armies that are fighting wars covertly, like those between afghanistan and russia in the past, I remember I saw a movie based on a true story where a charismatic congressman was able to raise a billion!!! to purchase anti helicopter stinger missiles, which turned the tide during that conflict, yet when the war was over he asked for a million dollars to rebuild the war torn places and build schools and hospitals, his proposal was rejected and was seen as a waste of money.

Nice world we live in.

Last edited by Travelling fella; 04-01-2009 at 08:32 PM..
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,824,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
I guess you both stated in your posts a big reason of the existence of illegal immigration.

This is the reason why it becomes something so emotional and hard to discuss, and why some people don't think it twice on breaking the law and just break in, I doubt they do it with the evil intention of screwing those who live in affluent countries, yet those things happen as a result of massive numbers of immigrants arriving without any control.

And precisely because of this, perhaps those resources spent on welfare, handouts and stupid wars, could be put to much better use helping those countries who need that help, but then we have the problem of corruption, but I guess that there is corruption also in the handouts given and specially the wars fought, it is sad indeed that for every penny spent in foreign aid, millions of dollars are spent on invasions, or support of armies that are fighting wars covertly, like those between afghanistan and russia in the past, I remember I saw a movie based on a true story where a charismatic congressman was able to raise a billion!!! to purchase anti helicopter stinger missiles, which turned the tide during that conflict, yet when the war was over he asked for a million dollars to rebuild the war torn places and build schools and hospitals, his proposal was rejected and was seen as a waste of money.

Nice world we live in.
The U.S. is a very generous nation, and we have given more than our share of financial support to other nations. Mexico is not a poor country, and needs to start accepting responsibility for its citizens. This situation is now approaching the boiling point. If it isnít resolved soon, the eruption will be widespread and lethal.

I am actually a very compassionate and charitable person, whose heart is beginning to harden due to this illegal alien invasion. I donít like it, but it is what it is. I can only imagine the rage some feel whose hearts have never been soft.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:05 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,624,231 times
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Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The U.S. is a very generous nation, and we have given more than our share of financial support to other nations. Mexico is not a poor country, and needs to start accepting responsibility for its citizens. This situation is now approaching the boiling point. If it isnít resolved soon, the eruption will be widespread and lethal.

I am actually a very compassionate and charitable person, whose heart is beginning to harden due to this illegal alien invasion. I donít like it, but it is what it is. I can only imagine the rage some feel whose hearts have never been soft.
So true....and so often forgotten today. The US has been a 'shining beacon' for more people, in more places, by far, than any previous nation in history...and that may not be 'fashionable' to say just now..but it's true. And it's STILL true, despite the occasional 'lapses' and oversights that have occurred, and the overwhelming tide of 'self-loathing' currently sweeping the nation. It started off as a brave 'experiment' in the 60's, this 'criticizing' of the US...quickly went from there to "bashing"..and has now become an 'industry'....but with all that 'bashing', we still put MOST of the world to shame in our sheer 'welcome' to outsiders, and our good works on behalf of our fellow man.

In the case of Mexico, in particular, we often forget (and so does Mexico) that in terms of LEGAL immigration ALONE, we've been a TREMENDOUS 'safety valve' to Mexico....and we've benefitted them FAR more, in my opinion, than they've benefitted us...for while the US can, and does, take in people from all over the world, Mexico, in years past, has traditionally had only one logical place to "send" its poor..legally or otherwise..(before they become angry, frustrated, and a threat to the 'power structure').....and that is NORTH, to the US. Yet that relationship, and that huge benefit to Mexico, is almost NEVER acknowledged, nor even mentioned. Almost the entire focus of discussion has been on illegals, and why we "should" include them, (whether we need them or not)....and it's that attitude that's not 'setting well' with the American public.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:26 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,081,741 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Here's the biggest obstacle to your dream.....the vast majority of Americans, (I'm sure I'm safe in saying this) have little confidence in achieving 'economic parity' with Sri Lanka, or Chad, or Bolivia, or Angola, or Albania...or any NUMBER of other places. Your 'dream' may appeal to those in the more backward regions of the Third World....and who can blame them? But HERE..I'm afraid the vast majority of us fear that any 'economic parity' that took place, would involve the USA descending closer to Third World levels, rather than the opposite

It's EASY to bring a place 'down'....while EXCEEDINGLY difficult to bring a place 'up'..for any number of reasons....including culture. The 'system' in the First World encourages growth....while in the Third World, 'the System' is often the reason for poverty. Are YOU going to tell people to change their culture? Good luck with THAT!
First off, backwards is a western centric term. Meaning what is "backwards" to you is perfectly normal around the world. This portrayal was pivitol in garnishing public support during the colonial era. Some of the best selling magazines in London during the colonial era depicted Africans as savage and carnal (very very far from the truth). This was to create an us vs. them mentality. I take it that you don't travel outside of the US too often, hence the term backwards and using very a nationalistic tone.

Economic parity does not mean descending. On the contrary, most sociologists and economists will tell you that the current models of growth and development involve poor countries getting richer. A great example is Eastern Germany. Many thought that unification would lead Western Germany to decrease it's standard of living. Near economic parity was achieved and Germany was an economic darling of Europe. So actually it's easier to bring a place up than it is down (China, and yes, Sri Lanka are testaments to this. The second fastest growing continent economically is Africa, after Asia).

The system that you state again, is a colonial holdover to indoctrinate those in the West to believe in their relative superiority. The Third World (global south) is comprised of people. People want to better their lot in life, regardless of where you are from. Thus, really this third world ideal you speak of, is really offensive and a little racist. This system is also a result of Western greed. For example for every chocolate bar you eat, half it is from my mom's country, Ivory Coast. However, the majority of profits are made outisde of the country. The farmers see such a tiny percent, they remain in poverty. The middlemen in America and Europe recieve a large percent of the profits. It's an unfraid trade system held over from the colonial era. Civil wars occur in all over the world simply because the US and Europe will back a certain government. Coups occur because of the US government. Welcome to neocolonialism. So the "system" is in place because of us, not in spite of us. Remember, the US has tons of corruption too. But, we're rich, so it's okay.
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