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Old 04-01-2009, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
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Mac and benecar:
Its sort of like when a rich uncle gives money to a family member with less. They call him cheap and stab him in the back for not giving more. As if it were owed to them...
No matter what we give it will never be enough because we will have more.
As for the point they trespass because they want a better life like we have and its not with evil intentions. Well that may describe a % but many do tresspass with evil intentions.
Once here many who started out just wanting a job commit more crimes. ID theft, fraud,and tax evasion. Almost to say we are here now and we deserve what you have, now give it or we will just take it anyway. At the end of the day there can be no parity until those under developed nations learn to make the tough choices and reform how they operate and treat their people. This starts with the people. Tresspassing against their neighbors is not a solution. Nor is giving them absolution for their crimes.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:42 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The U.S. is a very generous nation, and we have given more than our share of financial support to other nations. Mexico is not a poor country, and needs to start accepting responsibility for its citizens. This situation is now approaching the boiling point. If it isnít resolved soon, the eruption will be widespread and lethal.

I am actually a very compassionate and charitable person, whose heart is beginning to harden due to this illegal alien invasion. I donít like it, but it is what it is. I can only imagine the rage some feel whose hearts have never been soft.
Well, we aren't helping matters in the drug front. We are ravaging nations because of our gun-ho attitude against drugs, yet we are the world's largest consumers of illegal substances. This hypocracy has also put fuel into the fire for Mexican drug lords.

Legalize and regulate all drugs. If you legitimize it, then the violence will diminish. This is what happened with alcohol.

We don't live in a vacuum. All your actions affect others. Your buying cheap Mexican products aids to pollution in many Northern Mexican towns. However it also employs people. Yet, the vast majority of profits will go up north to the US. As you can see, the whole issue of immigration is not as simple as you make it to be...there a lot of US factors that enter into the equation.

Going to the whole issue of US charity...nothing is given for free. Strings are attached to many of the funds. Many times the strings do not benefit the populace of the recipient nation. So what ends up happening is that the funds are never seen by the majority of the people, since the design was meant to influence policy of a nation...not to aid it's population. Waste is what ends up happening, and fuelling the fire of corruption in these countries. There is also the lack of oversight and cooperation between the two countries. I guess what I'm saying, is that it's both the US and the recipient nation's fault for not aiding the poor (the people in power look out for number 1).
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Well, we aren't helping matters in the drug front. We are ravaging nations because of our gun-ho attitude against drugs, yet we are the world's largest consumers of illegal substances. This hypocracy has also put fuel into the fire for Mexican drug lords.

Legalize and regulate all drugs. If you legitimize it, then the violence will diminish. This is what happened with alcohol.

We don't live in a vacuum. All your actions affect others. Your buying cheap Mexican products aids to pollution in many Northern Mexican towns. However it also employs people. Yet, the vast majority of profits will go up north to the US. As you can see, the whole issue of immigration is not as simple as you make it to be...there a lot of US factors that enter into the equation.

Going to the whole issue of US charity...nothing is given for free. Strings are attached to many of the funds. Many times the strings do not benefit the populace of the recipient nation. So what ends up happening is that the funds are never seen by the majority of the people, since the design was meant to influence policy of a nation...not to aid it's population. Waste is what ends up happening, and fuelling the fire of corruption in these countries. There is also the lack of oversight and cooperation between the two countries. I guess what I'm saying, is that it's both the US and the recipient nation's fault for not aiding the poor (the people in power look out for number 1).
Mexico is finally stepping up and working on tighter inspections of assault weapons heading down their way.

As for drug legalization: with the exception of marijuana-------------I hope to God that they remain illegal, in particular Meth.

Again: we owe Mx nothing-------------that nation needs to grow up and accept responsibility for its colossal failures towards especially its 'brown' people.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Mexico is finally stepping up and working on tighter inspections of assault weapons heading down their way.

As for drug legalization: with the exception of marijuana-------------I hope to God that they remain illegal, in particular Meth.

Again: we owe Mx nothing-------------that nation needs to grow up and accept responsibility for its colossal failures towards especially its 'brown' people.
Yeah I was wondering just which drugs should be legalized. PCP? Coke? Meth? Heroine?
The pot? Well I hate working with potheads but then I hate working with drunks too.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:03 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Mexico is finally stepping up and working on tighter inspections of assault weapons heading down their way.

As for drug legalization: with the exception of marijuana-------------I hope to God that they remain illegal, in particular Meth.

Again: we owe Mx nothing-------------that nation needs to grow up and accept responsibility for its colossal failures towards especially its 'brown' people.
What about the things we caused? Nothing is a vacuum. Also, drug legalization means less money towards prisons, less stigma (treating drug addiction as a public health issue, rather than a crime), and less violence on our border. The number one drug anyways is marijauna. Our drug laws have also created this mess, coupled with our consumption. It partly is our responsibility, we are the ones buying it.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
What about the things we caused? Nothing is a vacuum. Also, drug legalization means less money towards prisons, less stigma (treating drug addiction as a public health issue, rather than a crime), and less violence on our border. The number one drug anyways is marijauna. Our drug laws have also created this mess, coupled with our consumption. It partly is our responsibility, we are the ones buying it.
The problem I have is yet again we overlook personal accountability.
Joe on his own decided hey I want to try Heroine. Joe even though its common knowledge that its addictive does it anyway. Now its society's obligation to save him. I am sorry but well Drug addiction started out as a personal choice. The choice to do drugs regardless of consequences. To be honest I really don't care what happens to drug addicts. Why should I? They didn't care what they were doing to themselves when they started their journey.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:43 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,297,320 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The U.S. is a very generous nation, and we have given more than our share of financial support to other nations. Mexico is not a poor country, and needs to start accepting responsibility for its citizens. This situation is now approaching the boiling point. If it isn’t resolved soon, the eruption will be widespread and lethal.

I am actually a very compassionate and charitable person, whose heart is beginning to harden due to this illegal alien invasion. I don’t like it, but it is what it is. I can only imagine the rage some feel whose hearts have never been soft.
I'm sure you are my dear Beni, and you are also a very levelheaded and reasonable person, you have my respect for that

Now I'll tell you that Mexico has only had 9 years of democracy, her progress in 9 years has been remarkable, things like unemployment insurance, food stamps and economic aid for those over 70 in Mexico city would have been a dream in other eras, but these programs have been implemented since the democratic revolution in this country, this brought also economic stability in this country which was what made these programs possible, so you can actually say that Mexico is starting to wake up, and will keep improving over time, even the violent incidents that have happened in border cities are a symptom of the government's actions against crime and corruption, yet like Macmeal stated improvements take time and they are very hard, specially for those people who live in isolated rural communities, even though many of those are eligible for the Oportunidades program that grants them scholarships for their children and other kinds of aid if they keep studying.

Yet I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that the USA has been a very kind and generous nation, it is true that the USA has had it's kind moments and it has helped Mexico and other countries very much in several ocassions, but it is also true that the USA has been a bully to many nations as well, and has abused her power in detriment of other nations, and has the habit of declaring wars every so few years to boost her economy, and because of this selfish desire a lot of innocent people has lost everything, their children, their parents, their homes, etc, yet like Macmeal wisely stated, within the USA there is the myth that the USA is "special" and "generous" and the world savior, the country of freedom and many other things that apply only when it's convenient.

And we can't deny the US government resposibility in this situation, I believe it's completely nonsensical that the only country in the world that makes everytyhing easy for illegals to stay and even gives them handouts, this is another example of USA's double standards which so far nobody in the USA noticed because it didn't affect them directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
So true....and so often forgotten today. The US has been a 'shining beacon' for more people, in more places, by far, than any previous nation in history...and that may not be 'fashionable' to say just now..but it's true. And it's STILL true, despite the occasional 'lapses' and oversights that have occurred, and the overwhelming tide of 'self-loathing' currently sweeping the nation. It started off as a brave 'experiment' in the 60's, this 'criticizing' of the US...quickly went from there to "bashing"..and has now become an 'industry'....but with all that 'bashing', we still put MOST of the world to shame in our sheer 'welcome' to outsiders, and our good works on behalf of our fellow man.

In the case of Mexico, in particular, we often forget (and so does Mexico) that in terms of LEGAL immigration ALONE, we've been a TREMENDOUS 'safety valve' to Mexico....and we've benefitted them FAR more, in my opinion, than they've benefitted us...for while the US can, and does, take in people from all over the world, Mexico, in years past, has traditionally had only one logical place to "send" its poor..legally or otherwise..(before they become angry, frustrated, and a threat to the 'power structure').....and that is NORTH, to the US. Yet that relationship, and that huge benefit to Mexico, is almost NEVER acknowledged, nor even mentioned. Almost the entire focus of discussion has been on illegals, and why we "should" include them, (whether we need them or not)....and it's that attitude that's not 'setting well' with the American public.
Again like I said to Benicar, that idea that the USA has been a shining beacon is more a myth than fact, yet it is true that in the case of the relationship between the USA and Mexico, we've had that great benefit as you said, so why instead of doing it under the table, we don't do it openly, in a similar way to the European Union, this doesn't happen because the USA government has been the accomplice of the Mexican government since Nafta was signed, this treaty was created when two very corrupt presidents were in power, George Bush Sr. and Carlos Salinas de Gortari, which is hated in Mexico because he destroyed the economy after he left the building. God knows what they negotiated in the dark, behind the table, now I also believe that before things got near the boiling point, a lot of people in the USA benefitted from Illegal aliens, if this weren't true they wouldn't have looked the other way for decades, and they wouldn't have made everything to boost and encourage illegal immigration in massive numbers, this is something that creates frustration in Mexico, because if you want to get a tourist visa you have to pay 250 dollars and get an appointment, if your visa is denied you loose the money, IMHO that's a robbery, specially because most of the people who apply don't get it, but once you are in the USA you are entitled to welfare, loans, government support, etc, so why the double standards?

Now the problem is that this has been going on for so long, with the blessing of both of our governments that if it was stopped cold turkey the entire economic structure that was built would fall like a house of cards, so some sort of compromise is needed (imho) yet our governments continue with the habit of doing things behind the table instead of doing them in front of us and speaking with the truth, but at least in Mexico most people has been aware that the government is corrupt and that the needs of their citizens are in the bottom of the list of their priorities, yet people in the USA is just starting to realize that they are under the same situation, a lot of people still believes that the USA is the best country in the world, the world's hero, the savior, the shining beacon, the hope of mankind, etc, which imho isn't true, the best country is the one where you feel happy, because there is no perfect country.

Now let's remember that we aren't the government, we are citizens, even if we live in different countries the truth is that most of us share the same culture and values so we shouldn't feel offended by making an objective analysis of our governments and their responsibility in the situation.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
What about the things we caused? Nothing is a vacuum. Also, drug legalization means less money towards prisons, less stigma (treating drug addiction as a public health issue, rather than a crime), and less violence on our border. The number one drug anyways is marijauna. Our drug laws have also created this mess, coupled with our consumption. It partly is our responsibility, we are the ones buying it.
If you are referring to Mexico: we owe that country nothing-----------it is certainly not our fault that their citizens feel the 'need' to sneak into the USA illegally.

You guilt trips simply do not work on me

More and more: that wall across our southern border is looking better and better.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:13 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
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Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
If you keep arguing about amnesty / no amnesty we will just miss the point of the OP.

I don't want to start deleting posts, so please let's give people who support illegals a chance to state why

There is another thread where people is stating their reasons why they are against any amnesty.
You made two very fair threads.

What is interesting, those against amnesty and massive illegal immigration came right out and said they oppose those and why but the pro-illegal, pro-amnesty side tries to mince words.

The USA takes in far more legal immigrants than any other country in the world, there are many who want to come to the USA -- and many reasons for wanting to come.

We've also got some very generous government programs that attract all the wrong kinds, cradle to grave government subsidies like food stamps, Medicaid, free housing.

I believe immigration shouldn't be just a get rich quick gimmick, not for employers and not for traffickers and not for illegals. Immigration should be a means to allow those people who truly desire to be American, who want and are able to assimilate into our society, who value our cultural ways and want to join in.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:16 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
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Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
The problem I have is yet again we overlook personal accountability.
Joe on his own decided hey I want to try Heroine. Joe even though its common knowledge that its addictive does it anyway. Now its society's obligation to save him. I am sorry but well Drug addiction started out as a personal choice. The choice to do drugs regardless of consequences. To be honest I really don't care what happens to drug addicts. Why should I? They didn't care what they were doing to themselves when they started their journey.
Look, I tried cocaine, ecstacy, salvia, ether. I did not get addicted. Yet, me and my friends, we tried it. One's in law school, one's a PhD in sociology, I'm studying to get into business school. There is a gray zone for drugs. There are such people as college experimenters. We do exist. We are not morally bankrupt, nor are we the dregs of society. Go to Orange County. All the shiny subdivisions, and blue ribbon schools. TONS OF WEEKEND DRUGS. The kids are away, the parents are free to do a little here and there once a year or so. The kids are doing well in school, the parents are loving and good parents. They are financially stable. I think it's okay for the occasional user. I don't think we should fuel a war in which WE OWE MEXICO an apalogy and WE OWE MONEY TO MEXICO for said war.

I agree, Joe who takes things overboard is an idiot. Society doesn't need to save him. However, society doesn't need to punish responsible people who experimented a few times in college. We don't need to cause a nation to be in a crisis because of our hypocrisy. We owe at least the commitment to Mexico that we take responsibility for our strict drug laws and our huge drug demand that created the perfect storm for this crisis.

Last edited by that1guy; 04-01-2009 at 10:21 PM.. Reason: little buzzed, hence spelling is off
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