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Old 04-04-2009, 09:53 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,895,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Once again, I find myself both fascinated and intrigued by the convoluted meanderings of your thought processes. So you now maintain that
"'the Whites' (in Zimbabwe /ex- Rhodesia) are WAY richer than the average black"...well, that's very likely true, (or WAS, until most whites got 'ejected' from their lands recently). But you say this as if it was a fact hatched in a vacuum. Perhaps there's a REASON for the disparity, above and beyond the standard 'racism / colonialism/ conqueror' story.

How well off are the blacks in Zimbabwe NOW?....and how well off were they BEFORE colonialism? And how well off are they in comparison with their neighbors in the region?

It brings to mind a huge debate I recall during the Bosnian war some years ago. At the time the UN was setting up refugee camps for those displaced by the fighting in Yugoslavia, at the SAME TIME, provisions were being made for hundreds of thousands of internal refugees in Somalia, displaced by THEIR war. Inevitably, the familiar charge of 'racial disparity' raised its head.

It seems that the 'good liberal folks' running the UN had provided a 'level of comfort' for the Bosnians far exceeding the spartan quarters awarded the Somalis...and this was alluded to as evidence of 'racism'. Whereas the black Somalis were housed in tents, had pit latrines, got their water delivered by an occasional truck, and largely relied on family 'cooking fires' for food prep, the white Bosnians had the use of 'shower trailers' and mobile flush toilets; heated, hard-floored walled tents; community cooking facilities equipped with running water and gas ranges AND refrigeration, and even provisions for TV viewing in the 'rec' area.

"RACISM, plain and simple", cried some. "Not so at ALL", insisted others; they explained that SO abysmal were the NORMAL living conditions of the largely-nomadic Somalis, that in essence, their refugee quarters were actually an IMPROVEMENT, at least physically, over 'life at home'. At home, they drew water from distant water holes, and walked long distances in search of food.

The Bosnians, meanwhile, suffered a significant 'blow' in their new quarters, even with all those 'comforts'. Whereas they were largely a fairly well-educated lot, and most had TV's, electricity, and 'the works', they now had to get used to 'community living'...and the brutal cold of the Balkan winter made 'heating' a neccessity. They had 'running water', because the area was already equipped to provide it. They had electricity for the same reasons.

Intersting 'debate', and particularly so because it occurred among UN agencies, who normally BLANCH at the thought of ANYTHING suggesting 'racial disparity'. Yet here it was, right in the middle of the ultra-liberal UN system....an OBVIOUS case of racial disparity...and the only argument was over "why".

So, back to Zimbabwe..the Whites are (were) 'better off than the blacks'....OK, granted. But WHY? ONLY because of colonialism? Or partially because large, efficient, computerized, mechanized farming operations simply 'produce more' than primitive hand-operated, subsistence-level 'traditional' farming? In other words, if 'Whites' had NEVER ARRIVED in Zimbabwe, would it today enjoy an economy similar to that of Germany or Japan or France?...or NOT?

Interesting discussion.
Well interestingly enough for Africa...if colonialism had not happened, it may have been better off. First off, Africa had many stable political units. Notably, ZIMBABWE. It had an advanced economic and political structure. There was also the empire of Mali and Songhai (with trade to the Middle East, Europe, and Asia...it was at the time one of the richest Empires), There were also the trading states on the East African coast. They rivalved Vience in terms of trade. Well, by the 1600s, after subsequent European invasions...all of these Empires fell. Around that time was the sugar plantations in South America. So from the 1600s-mid to late 1800s (200+ years) was the legal exportation of people to the new world.

So imagine a political vacuum caused by Europeans coupled with a massive shortage of people also by Europeans. How is colonialism good?

You make claims of tribesman without even knowing any part of the pre-colonial political structure or culture. Bloody tribal wars also occurred in Europe. So did ritualistic sacrifice (the witch trials reached its peak during the time of Voltaire and other philosophers). The thing that enabled Europe to win in the long run was the investment towards exploration and arms. Africa did not need large scale arms or the need for nautical exploration, Arabs served as middlemen between Africans and the rest of the world. (I'm putting things in rather simple terms for you to understand).

Southern Africa was subjected to genocide and apartheid. Rhodesia forced people off their lands. Mugabe saw that that Whites owned a disproportionate amount of land. Was it right for the systematic take over? No. Was there a need to redistribute? Most likely. A fourth generation White Zimbabwean is now about 10 years old or so. The majority are 2nd/3rd generation. South Africans have some White families going back to the 1700s, but most came during the gold rush in the 1800-1900s.

Nobody knows where the world would be without colonialism. The only good thing that really came out of it was globalization. But even that occurred prior to colonialism. So, I really don't see any benefit.

Now we are in the era of neo-colonialism in which the Western world exploits cheap third world labor.

Colonialism essentially stalled the growth of nations and regressed many as it created a power vacuum (much like our current war in Iraq).

I see from your posts that you, along with AZBear, don't really know about these issues. It's okay if you don't...but it'll help in understanding the third world perspective (which is somewhat pertinent to illegal immigration).

 
Old 04-04-2009, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 3,281,617 times
Reputation: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Sorry...my opinions have evolved over several decades....they may continue to evolve in the future. But for now, my life as the spouse of an 'indigenous person' (what you refer to as a 'savage') I will admit, has influenced my outlook. We've talked at length over the years, and HER position is (surprisingly, maybe) somewhat to the 'right' of mine. She has less of the 'guilt' than I do, and basically, her view (which I've incorporated into my OWN) is that while today, life as a 'conquered savage' may just plain SUCK...at LEAST it sucks for a few more decades than it 'sucked' back then; and that the past, and its 'noble savages', might SEEM idyllic in a Disney movie, in actual point of fact, life back then was pretty dismal....and no, salvation wasn't dependant on the 'righteous white man' at all.it was dependant on modern technology, modern culture, forward thinking, and a casting off of the old superstitions, tribal hatreds, and general 'backward thinking' of the past. Call that an 'illusion' if you will....but that's my position...(and apparently a few of the 'savages' agree with me).

Ever meet an Eskimo (Inuit)? I had the privilege of meeting a few once...and they ALL owned...(or 'aspired' to own) BRAND NEW SHINY 'Ski-Doos' (i.e. 'Snow Machines') Why would they adopt such technology, rather than cling to th old 'tried-and-true' home-made dog sled? Maybe because they "need" the approval of the 'white guy' who builds and sells the machines...but I very much doubt that. I think it's probably because these machines make their lives about 200% easier, and they WANT them, and they couldn't care LESS who invented them or built them....white man, Japanese, or even GAY guy....no one cares, except that this technology makes life better, and takes away some of the burden of living.
Nice one trying to spin the "savage" remark..never took you as the kind to spin.
Anyway,
No one's arguing that progress isn't a good thing, and that we haven't benefited from modern technology.
My issue is more with your romanticizing colonialism and European rule. As if people didn't suffer in Europe from European civilizations own flaws, and your own description as the world being a bunch of savages until Europeans took them over.

You're talking about technology and all that stuff, but do you really think the world would be doomed without Europeans making vast empires out of most of the world?
Is it impossible that those countries could have developed on their own, on their own terms?

Were the Europeans the white light shining on the world?
Without European's colonizing the world, would all the natives be female mutilating, cannibalistic, murderous savages?
 
Old 04-04-2009, 10:02 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,531,721 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Some cultures developed a need to conquer early on. It was part of their culture to think they were God's chosen people,and they were entitled to take over the world.
A lot of nations and peoples weren't allowed to develop their own governments, their own modern societies before being conquered to become part of someone else's empire.

When imperial powers were no longer able to hold on to their conquered lands, they just up and left, leaving a vacuum of power. When there's a sudden vacuum of power after centuries of imperial rule, there's going to be chaos. It becomes easier for bad people to come to power.
But even when imperial powers no longer rule those lands, they still have a lot of influence, especially if that land has important resources.
Lots of terrible regimes have gotten their start from our own government.

Maybe I'm not going anywhere with this, but I don't buy your views about the savages needing the righteous white man.
And that's how I feel you see the unconquered indigenous person..as a savage.


I guess your argument is that it was "infinitely better" to be hacked to pieces and tortured by outsiders in the name of Christianity and civilization and have your women and children raped by invaders from Europe, rather than all the "savagery" of their countrymen.

You always bring up female circumcision, and here you talk about cannibalism, pedophilia, and hacking to pieces.

I can bring up some messed up things about "civilization" too. A few genocides come to mind.


But who knows what "savage" people would have come up with had they been allowed a chance to fully develop?
Speaking on just the natives of the Americas, they were pretty civilized themselves. They had come up with complex mathematics, astronomy, languages, architecture, SOCIETY. They weren't just hopping up and down holding spears.
But we'll never know how they could've developed.
We won't even know how far they really got, because the "infinitely better" colonists destroyed any accounts of their history they had kept.
I've followed you (or TRIED to) up to your last point..OK, I'll play along...nobody knows what "might" have happened, I'll give you that (of course, it COULD have been something very BAD...but I won't quibble...what 'might have been' is open to anyone's guess).

But your LAST POINT? Sorry, that one gets re-used all the time; I never bought it before, and I'm not buying it now...there was NO 'great civilization' in existence..anywhere...that was invaded by whites (or anyone else) who 'stole its knowledge'....or 'stole its technology'...or 'destroyed its memory of its greatness'. Sorry, and like I said, this has been tried before. Invaders MIGHT have been 'mean, cruel, and nasty'....(and they MIGHT have been 'whites')...but even WHITES can't 'wipe out knowledge'. THAT is not possible...if there's a lack of 'knowledge', and a lack of cultural 'memory' toward a glorious past, it's because that past never existed.

Continue to harp on the brutality of invasion and colonialism, and I'll probably agree with much of what you say. But 'whites stole someone's civilization'? Sorry...civilization can't be stolen. It's like saying someone 'made' me dishonest...or unreliable...or 'made' me believe in the tooth fairy. I think most of these 'glorious past civilizations' were 'glorious' only for a chosen few...or existed only in someone's mind.
 
Old 04-04-2009, 10:09 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,895,622 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I've followed you (or TRIED to) up to your last point..OK, I'll play along...nobody knows what "might" have happened, I'll give you that (of course, it COULD have been something very BAD...but I won't quibble...what 'might have been' is open to anyone's guess).

But your LAST POINT? Sorry, that one gets re-used all the time; I never bought it before, and I'm not buying it now...there was NO 'great civilization' in existence..anywhere...that was invaded by whites (or anyone else) who 'stole its knowledge'....or 'stole its technology'...or 'destroyed its memory of its greatness'. Sorry, and like I said, this has been tried before. Invaders MIGHT have been 'mean, cruel, and nasty'....(and they MIGHT have been 'whites')...but even WHITES can't 'wipe out knowledge'. THAT is not possible...if there's a lack of 'knowledge', and a lack of cultural 'memory' toward a glorious past, it's because that past never existed.

Continue to harp on the brutality of invasion and colonialism, and I'll probably agree with much of what you say. But 'whites stole someone's civilization'? Sorry...civilization can't be stolen. It's like saying someone 'made' me dishonest...or unreliable...or 'made' me believe in the tooth fairy. I think most of these 'glorious past civilizations' were 'glorious' only for a chosen few...or existed only in someone's mind.
You're right a civilization can't be stolen, but it can be destroyed.
 
Old 04-04-2009, 10:13 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,895,622 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Sorry...my opinions have evolved over several decades....they may continue to evolve in the future. But for now, my life as the spouse of an 'indigenous person' (what you refer to as a 'savage') I will admit, has influenced my outlook. We've talked at length over the years, and HER position is (surprisingly, maybe) somewhat to the 'right' of mine. She has less of the 'guilt' than I do, and basically, her view (which I've incorporated into my OWN) is that while today, life as a 'conquered savage' may just plain SUCK...at LEAST it sucks for a few more decades than it 'sucked' back then; and that the past, and its 'noble savages', might SEEM idyllic in a Disney movie, in actual point of fact, life back then was pretty dismal....and no, salvation wasn't dependant on the 'righteous white man' at all.it was dependant on modern technology, modern culture, forward thinking, and a casting off of the old superstitions, tribal hatreds, and general 'backward thinking' of the past. Call that an 'illusion' if you will....but that's my position...(and apparently a few of the 'savages' agree with me).

Ever meet an Eskimo (Inuit)? I had the privilege of meeting a few once...and they ALL owned...(or 'aspired' to own) BRAND NEW SHINY 'Ski-Doos' (i.e. 'Snow Machines') Why would they adopt such technology, rather than cling to th old 'tried-and-true' home-made dog sled? Maybe because they "need" the approval of the 'white guy' who builds and sells the machines...but I very much doubt that. I think it's probably because these machines make their lives about 200% easier, and they WANT them, and they couldn't care LESS who invented them or built them....white man, Japanese, or even GAY guy....no one cares, except that this technology makes life better, and takes away some of the burden of living.
Couldn't all this be achieved via fair trade and commerce? Is outright exploitation needed? Was colonialism needed to achieve the goal of introducing technology to others?
 
Old 04-04-2009, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 3,281,617 times
Reputation: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I've followed you (or TRIED to) up to your last point..OK, I'll play along...nobody knows what "might" have happened, I'll give you that (of course, it COULD have been something very BAD...but I won't quibble...what 'might have been' is open to anyone's guess).

But your LAST POINT? Sorry, that one gets re-used all the time; I never bought it before, and I'm not buying it now...there was NO 'great civilization' in existence..anywhere...that was invaded by whites (or anyone else) who 'stole its knowledge'....or 'stole its technology'...or 'destroyed its memory of its greatness'. Sorry, and like I said, this has been tried before. Invaders MIGHT have been 'mean, cruel, and nasty'....(and they MIGHT have been 'whites')...but even WHITES can't 'wipe out knowledge'. THAT is not possible...if there's a lack of 'knowledge', and a lack of cultural 'memory' toward a glorious past, it's because that past never existed.

Continue to harp on the brutality of invasion and colonialism, and I'll probably agree with much of what you say. But 'whites stole someone's civilization'? Sorry...civilization can't be stolen. It's like saying someone 'made' me dishonest...or unreliable...or 'made' me believe in the tooth fairy. I think most of these 'glorious past civilizations' were 'glorious' only for a chosen few...or existed only in someone's mind.
Can't wipe out knowledge?
Can't wipe out a culture?
You're pulling my leg here right?

So you find it hard to believe that the Spaniards destroyed Aztec art and culture, and forced religion on them?

Okay, so saying all my teachers have been bs'ing me, and so have all the scholars my teachers derived their material from...where are you getting your info from?
 
Old 04-05-2009, 08:15 AM
 
Location: San Diego
50,155 posts, read 46,811,218 times
Reputation: 33986
So..........ANYWAY............


A Country or State or City has every right to allow or disallow the services it offers especially if it is presented via public services paid for by taxes or is in any way part of the system paid for by taxes paid by it's legal, law abiding populace.
 
Old 04-05-2009, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,144 posts, read 42,061,062 times
Reputation: 3861
Funny how a couple of pro illegal alien apologists get so bent out of shape over what happened in Third World nations before any human being alive today was born yet I do not hear boo about atrocities in modern First World countries that occurred in the past 100 years.
 
Old 04-05-2009, 04:19 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,895,622 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Funny how a couple of pro illegal alien apologists get so bent out of shape over what happened in Third World nations before any human being alive today was born yet I do not hear boo about atrocities in modern First World countries that occurred in the past 100 years.
Money heals all wounds. That's why. Plus it's not so funny considering the general lack of understanding of the issues pertaining to how illegal immigration is relevant to third world exploitation.
 
Old 04-05-2009, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,144 posts, read 42,061,062 times
Reputation: 3861
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Money heals all wounds. That's why. Plus it's not so funny considering the general lack of understanding of the issues pertaining to how illegal immigration is relevant to third world exploitation.
Face it: if we (the USA) cut off all imports from Third World countries-----------it would hurt them much more than it would us.
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