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Old 04-04-2009, 07:17 AM
 
1,304 posts, read 2,927,621 times
Reputation: 393

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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
The majority names are not pro-illegal (La Raza I could see, though).

Okay, I can tell you it's not wasting money on a wall that won't work. It's not putting our already thin troops and guards on the border. It's not tying up public money to send policemen to racially profile people to determine legal status. It's not simply closing the border. It's not having ridiculous requirements to enter into the nation as an immigrant. These are the main things I hear for "anti-illegal".

It is more comprehensive guest worker program. It is amensty with certain provisions (proof of living in the US for a certain time...bills, any time stamped documentation, proof of work history, no criminal record), it is expediating the process to enter into the US, it is making classes to legalize immigrants (they may have to go to the back of the line to enter if they do not meet the provisions of amnesty). It is flexibility in saying okay how do we deal with the current immigrants here and placing more of an emphasis on that. There are some ideals I stated in the past, some however, some of those may not be feasible.

There could be a middle ground in all this. Like my dad always said, take the middle road. Compromise.
Amnesty... in no way is the answer.
"no criminal record"... They already have a criminal record by sneaking over,,,
maybe you don't know this, but that is AGAINST the law... a criminal act.
"proof of living in U.S." Again, a criminal act. reward them with citizenship?
Why don't we just do away with our laws, courts, police, & prisons?
Giving amnesty will ONLY entice millions more to sneakover and wait for another one!
We have laws.. maybe not perfect, but they are in place to protect us.
We have laws against thieves... thieves who take what is not rightfully thiers.
There is talk about immigration reform. There is NEVER any talks (politically) about
ILLEGAL immigration reform. Standing up and speaking the real truth, seperating and
also knowing the difference between the two.. is the first steps congress and pro-illegals
need to do! There is nothing wrong with our LEGAL immigration process. It has allowed
millions of immigrants to become a part of our great nation... and then in turn, they who
came via our legal immigration process contributed in helping those who follow.
With out this LEGAL process... we will (and do).. have all kinds of criminals flowing back
and forth over our border, those from stealing jobs, commiting fraud, rape, and
murder... the list is long. Giving amnesty to those we know absolutely nothing about will
only give more criminals to follow the same opportunity!
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Old 04-04-2009, 09:25 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,923,592 times
Reputation: 22174
Update:

Profiler: Gunman Sought "Sweet Revenge" - CBS News

"It seems to me," Levin observed to Hill, "that, in this case, Wong was on a suicidal rampage. He was going to take his life, but first he was going to get even. He was going to get sweet revenge against the other immigrants who had looked down upon him, among whom he had lost face. To him, that was an extremely important thing.

"He had already suffered a catastrophic loss, by losing his job in a layoff, but he also lost respect in the eyes of the immigrant population, and blamed (the American Civic Association), which was responsible, or at least had a mandate to teach, language skills and job training, and those were the things that he lacked."


It's the entitlement attitude that so many immigrants have. This guy couldn't learn English and so blamed the center for not teaching him English or job skills. Plus his own cultural background and attitude toward losing face. He didn't get his perfect "American dream" handed to him on a silver platter so he got even.
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Old 04-04-2009, 09:35 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,923,592 times
Reputation: 22174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Bound View Post
Amnesty... in no way is the answer.
"no criminal record"... They already have a criminal record by sneaking over,,,
maybe you don't know this, but that is AGAINST the law... a criminal act.
"proof of living in U.S." Again, a criminal act. reward them with citizenship?
Why don't we just do away with our laws, courts, police, & prisons?
Giving amnesty will ONLY entice millions more to sneakover and wait for another one!
We have laws.. maybe not perfect, but they are in place to protect us.
We have laws against thieves... thieves who take what is not rightfully thiers.
There is talk about immigration reform. There is NEVER any talks (politically) about
ILLEGAL immigration reform. Standing up and speaking the real truth, seperating and
also knowing the difference between the two.. is the first steps congress and pro-illegals
need to do! There is nothing wrong with our LEGAL immigration process. It has allowed
millions of immigrants to become a part of our great nation... and then in turn, they who
came via our legal immigration process contributed in helping those who follow.
With out this LEGAL process... we will (and do).. have all kinds of criminals flowing back
and forth over our border, those from stealing jobs, commiting fraud, rape, and
murder... the list is long. Giving amnesty to those we know absolutely nothing about will
only give more criminals to follow the same opportunity!
The only compromise I can see is that if someone was here illegally but committed no other crime, paid taxes on any income earned, filed an income statement every year with the IRS would be to allow them to go home and apply to come here legally.

I don't believe that they should be rewarded in any way for having broken the laws, and they should not be moved to the front of the line ahead of those who are complying with the legal process.

Illegals who have no other crime on their record should return home and get in line just like all the others ahead of them have done. They may have an advantage because they've had the opportunities to become fluent in English and learn our culture.

It's a slap on the face to all those who do things the right way to put illegals ahead of them or make an alternate fast route for those who choose to break the laws.
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Old 04-04-2009, 11:03 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,090,989 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
No. Reservations are where you end up if you don't keep an eye on who, how many, and why there are people flooding into your country.

Obviously assimilation is not a given, ask the Cherokees and Comanches about that.

The global economy isn't really doing very well, we may be at the beginning of it's collapse. One world empires or universal kingdoms may seem utopian but the natural order is different countries and cultures.
Reservations were set up as places where natives can only live...restrictive movement.

Plus how do we know the natural order of societies? Political units, as we know it, are relatively new. A global intertwined economy is a fairly recent construct. So how do you the natural order of things when we have entered a brave new world.
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Old 04-04-2009, 11:15 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,647,167 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Reservations were set up as places where natives can only live...restrictive movement.

Plus how do we know the natural order of societies? Political units, as we know it, are relatively new. A global intertwined economy is a fairly recent construct. So how do you the natural order of things when we have entered a brave new world.
Toilet paper, soap, toothbrushes, and penicillin are also fairly recent constructs....They're violations of 'the natural state of mankind', and we didn't always have them. Maybe we don't really need them, but most of us are happier WITH them than without them; that much we're willing to assume.

And your point is?.....
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Old 04-04-2009, 11:19 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,090,989 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Toilet paper, soap, toothbrushes, and penicillin are also fairly recent constructs....They're violations of 'the natural state of mankind', and we didn't always have them. Maybe we don't really need them, but most of us are happier WITH them than without them; that much we're willing to assume.

And your point is?.....
What is your point? Inventions happen? What are you talking about? Are you trying to just disagree with me just because?

I'm saying that how can a person know the rammifications of something new, or predict something based on old outdated models of politics and society.

What are you saying?
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Old 04-04-2009, 11:22 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,090,989 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
Are you suggesting that it would be good if the US was part of a North American-like version of the EU? A system in which nationals from member states A, B, C & D can move freely to member state E and compete for jobs against every citizen in E? I'd hate to see something like that happen with the US and Central America.
Umm...that would be a good thing, the EU has requirements for development to be considered a member. We are somewhat headed to a society of states like the EU/US model. The US already is comprised of semi-autonomous states within a federal framework. Laws vary from state to state, yet people are allowed freely to move from state to state.

In an ideal world, this system would be global. Again ideally.
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Old 04-04-2009, 11:36 AM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,482,021 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The only compromise I can see is that if someone was here illegally but committed no other crime, paid taxes on any income earned, filed an income statement every year with the IRS would be to allow them to go home and apply to come here legally.

I don't believe that they should be rewarded in any way for having broken the laws, and they should not be moved to the front of the line ahead of those who are complying with the legal process.

Illegals who have no other crime on their record should return home and get in line just like all the others ahead of them have done. They may have an advantage because they've had the opportunities to become fluent in English and learn our culture.

It's a slap on the face to all those who do things the right way to put illegals ahead of them or make an alternate fast route for those who choose to break the laws.
This I whole heartedly agree because it is based on logic, and it has NOTHING to do with ethnicity or character assumptions on the part of the poster.

Yes this incident, which is what the thread was about, is not just about a psychopath. It is about our culture. It's about the overzealous nature of people trying to prove their point using hate language. It's in every thread.

This is the consequence of this sort of hatred.
http://imagine2050.newcomm.org/2008/...igrant-murder/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Levy_(politician)
Quote:
Levy has been accused by some immigrant advocates of helping to fuel anti-immigrant sentiment by promoting tough policies against illegal immigration; this criticism grew more widespread in the wake of a brutal November 2008 murder of an Ecuadorian immigrant in Suffolk County. Levy himself, however, has disclaimed any connection between his county's policies and that attack, which he described as not "a question of any county policy or legislation," but "a question of bad people doing horrific things."
Translation: It's not my fault my rhetoric whipped impressionable people I'm responsible to LEAD into illegal acts themselves.

Read any thread on this entire immigration forum and y'all can round up the guilty parties (and find yourself embarassed being rounded up). Many on the anti illegal side of the aisle, whether you believe it or not, have been the guilty parties of misconduct in this forum. Naturally the de facto defense will be 1st amendment rights, how dare I rob you of an opinion. That right accompanies a serious personal responsibility, one that few have embraced completely, but are all too quick to chase after others as irresponsible. It doesn't matter which side of the issue you stand. When you cross that line of personal misconduct, you diminish America in ways that make it not worth defending.

The other side of the aisle from yourself Malamute, LaRaza is guilty as hell.

No doubt in my mind people are stuck seeing nothing more than what they want to see. That is until bricks of reality land on their heads. Willing to explore the truth more deeply, you might ask yourselves why a legal immigrant would lose faith in the promise of the american dream enough to behave as he did. This wasn't ALL in his head. Some of it came from our own culture. Make your words impeccable.
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Old 04-04-2009, 11:40 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,722,213 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
This I whole heartedly agree because it is based on logic, and it has NOTHING to do with ethnicity or character assumptions on the part of the poster.

Yes this incident, which is what the thread was about, is not just about a psychopath. It is about our culture. It's about the overzealous nature of people trying to prove their point using hate language. It's in every thread.

This is the consequence of this sort of hatred.
Who Has Blood on Their Hands in Anti-Immigrant Murder? | IMAGINE 2050

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Levy_(politician)

Translation: It's not my fault my rhetoric whipped impressionable people I'm responsible to LEAD into illegal acts themselves.

Read any thread on this entire immigration forum and y'all can round up the guilty parties (and find yourself embarassed being rounded up). Many on the anti illegal side of the aisle, whether you believe it or not, have been the guilty parties of misconduct in this forum. Naturally the de facto defense will be 1st amendment rights, how dare I rob you of an opinion. That right accompanies a serious personal responsibility, one that few have embraced completely, but are all too quick to chase after others as irresponsible. It doesn't matter which side of the issue you stand. When you cross that line of personal misconduct, you diminish America in ways that make it not worth defending.

The other side of the aisle from yourself Malamute, LaRaza is guilty as hell.

No doubt in my mind people are stuck seeing nothing more than what they want to see. That is until bricks of reality land on their heads. Willing to explore the truth more deeply, you might ask yourselves why a legal immigrant would lose faith in the promise of the american dream enough to behave as he did. This wasn't ALL in his head. Some of it came from our own culture. Make your words impeccable.
Quote:
It's not my fault my rhetoric whipped impressionable people
If they are that 'impressionable' and incapable of self control, then these are hardly the sort of individuals we should be seeking out as future citizens.
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Old 04-04-2009, 12:22 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,647,167 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
What is your point? Inventions happen? What are you talking about? Are you trying to just disagree with me just because?

I'm saying that how can a person know the rammifications of something new, or predict something based on old outdated models of politics and society.

What are you saying?
That (referencing your post #54 ), 'Political units', though 'new', are so far, at this point, far preferable to most of their alternatives (rule by free-lance, roaming bands of 'thugs' and bullies....or a free-floating utopia where everyone just 'does his own thing' and enjoys the approval of his neighbors)....and that while "the natural order of things", left to rise or fall on its own accord, MAY result in an idyllic earthly "Eden", I doubt it....the 'natural order of things', if no one tries to influence it, is PROBABLY a brutish, oppressive rule of the 'many' by the 'few', and the natural 'state of mankind', barring any attempts to modify it, is probably a short, tragic life of stess and discord, followed by an early death.

Remember, the 'natural' state of human beings is that they mature sexually around the age of 15, produce numerous offspring over the next decade, necessarily 'nurture' those offspring until THEY mature, and then by about the age of 38 or 40, the 'natural' human being is no longer 'needed' in the 'natural scheme of things'. Anything after THAT is purely "extra", and any lifespan beyond that is PROBABLY only available because we're willing to alter 'the natural order of things'.

Therefore, it's difficult for me to understand your frequent references to this 'natural state'. Our lifestyle in the affluent nations, (and that which is aspired to in the LESS affluent nations), is a function of our willingness to IMPROVE upon 'nature', not to give in to its demands. Again, in your theories, I see an idealism disconnected from the practicalities of real-world conditions.

If one can't judge the ramifications of something new, or make rational predictions, based on past models and/ or experiences, what basis do YOU suggest he judge things on?

Last edited by macmeal; 04-04-2009 at 12:39 PM..
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