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Old 04-09-2009, 12:35 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
Reputation: 822

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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Not so fast there....not all of us 'flipped our McMansions'....and a large number of hospitals in this area HAVE closed their emergency rooms over the past few years, due to an intolerable load of 'indigent' patients, unable to pay for their care, yet forbidden by law to be 'NOT treated'...whether any of these 'indigents' are illegals or not, of COURSE there's no 'proof'. But I think the illegals are at LEAST as guilty as the 'flippers'.

And as one with a LONG history of knowing, working with, and associating with illegals, and a LONG-time defender of these folks as 'people', not by definition violent crminals, still, some of them ARE.....and whether the illegals, as a group, have a WORSE record of violence than 'locals'; the SAME record; or even a BETTER record in regards to violent behavior, the fact remains thar illegals shouldn't be committing ANY violent crimes at ALL, because legally, they shouldn't BE here.

If YOUR kids tear your house up, that's bad....but if MY kids tear your house up, that's WORSE...because MY kids shouldn't be in YOUR house, unless you invite them. And that holds true, whether my kids are 'better' than yours, or not..they STILL don't belong in YOUR house.
The economy was not caused by illegal immigrants...it was caused by an overheated housing market...caused by overspeculation and loose lending. Hospitals shutting down just reflect our priorities. Hospitals closing occurs in poorer communities, not just illegal enclaves (majority Black communities have had hospitals shut down in the past).

Crime is more seen in communities with a lack of proper education and jobs.

Comparing a country to a single family residence is not the same. The impact is more localized in a single family home whereas the impact is more dispersed in a nation. Not to mention the fact that a home does not contain jobs, commerce, gov't, etc. A home is simply a residence. A country is a country. Very big differences.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:32 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
The economy was not caused by illegal immigrants...it was caused by an overheated housing market...caused by overspeculation and loose lending. Hospitals shutting down just reflect our priorities. Hospitals closing occurs in poorer communities, not just illegal enclaves (majority Black communities have had hospitals shut down in the past).

Crime is more seen in communities with a lack of proper education and jobs.

Comparing a country to a single family residence is not the same. The impact is more localized in a single family home whereas the impact is more dispersed in a nation. Not to mention the fact that a home does not contain jobs, commerce, gov't, etc. A home is simply a residence. A country is a country. Very big differences.
Thanks....I feel better now. Somehow I just KNEW that illegals weren't the problem, but I couldn't put it into words. You've done that for me; and for that, I thank you. Illegals aren't the problem, of COURSE...CITIZENS are!.....And CRIMINALS don't cause crime...lack of jobs does!....and so does lack of education (which is EVERYONE'S right, whether they desire to be educated or not; and even if they 'drop out').....yes....yes indeed.....I will remember that...(I MUST remember that, because at first, it's not obvious)...

Guess I just 'assumed'....and you know what happens when one ASSUMES....
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:52 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by iturbide1981 View Post
[/color]

this analogy, doesnt buy Mexico since it started the bracero program since world war 2, "why Mexico" more then fifty percent of illegals come from that place. When Mexico started the program the only thing that it asked for was for american companies to hire Mexicans the legal way, pay them descent wages, and treat them humanly. Everytime Mexico applied it we broke their laws how, not listening and bribing Mexican officials, and their populations. exploit them and when not needed without the care of the world just send them back.

that analogy doesnt buy, either the mom or the father "whoever you want representing the chamber of commerce, our politicians, or the small companies hiring them" tried adopting that child, and everytime they ran into a recession mommy or daddy lost the job the only scapegoat that
they could find was the child they tried to adopt.

illegals did brake a rule, but we make the laws and if we dont enforce them the laws that we so tried to implement on them, what value do they have if we dont enforce them? to a degree the illegal did brake the law
BUT WE MAKE THEM, EXPLOIT THEM AND CHEAT THE TAXPAYER
SO YOU NEED TO COME UP WITH A DIFFRENT ANALOGY WITH YOUR ABSURD COMPARISON BECAUSE itself doesnt buy.
I'm trying to 'get' this....you want us to ENFORCE our laws? Or NOT to enforce them? I thought all the anger out there was based, in large part, on the fact that we're now thinking about enforcing the law. You seem to suggest that NOT enforcing the law has gotten us to this present unhappy 'mess'. If that's what you're saying, you MIGHT be surprised to learn that that's EXACTLY what I've said, many times...that illegal immigration is a situation that SHOULD HAVE been addressed 20 years ago (i.e., "the law SHOULD have been enforced LONG ago").

Still, I think your argument is ultimately a weak one, because it's equivalent to saying, "Yes, I broke the law...but it's not MY fault...I broke the law because you LET me break it". While that may be factually true, it won't get you very far in this system, because you're not SUPPOSED to break the law, whether someone STOPS you, or not. That attitude is precisely why Third-World societies are so unpleasant; where one 'does what he wants, unless someone stops him'....and then, when someone STOPS him, he's 'oppressed'. Far better to live in a system where the laws are obeyed voluntarily, and people don't HAVE to be 'stopped' from doing what they want, because they feel an obligation to obey the (generally benevolent) law, whether a 'cop happens to be standing there' or not.

"It's YOUR fault that I broke the law" is the reasoning of a 6-year old, not an adult.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:54 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,708,999 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by iturbide1981 View Post
[/color]

this analogy, doesnt buy Mexico since it started the bracero program since world war 2, "why Mexico" more then fifty percent of illegals come from that place. When Mexico started the program the only thing that it asked for was for american companies to hire Mexicans the legal way, pay them descent wages, and treat them humanly. Everytime Mexico applied it we broke their laws how, not listening and bribing Mexican officials, and their populations. exploit them and when not needed without the care of the world just send them back.

that analogy doesnt buy, either the mom or the father "whoever you want representing the chamber of commerce, our politicians, or the small companies hiring them" tried adopting that child, and everytime they ran into a recession mommy or daddy lost the job the only scapegoat that
they could find was the child they tried to adopt.

illegals did brake a rule, but we make the laws and if we dont enforce them the laws that we so tried to implement on them, what value do they have if we dont enforce them? to a degree the illegal did brake the law
BUT WE MAKE THEM, EXPLOIT THEM AND CHEAT THE TAXPAYER
SO YOU NEED TO COME UP WITH A DIFFRENT ANALOGY WITH YOUR ABSURD COMPARISON BECAUSE itself doesnt buy.
Why shouldn't the US have sent them back? What part of 'guest worker program' do you not understand? They were allowed into the US as temporary workers, why should they not have been returned to their homeland when the the period of time they had agreed to work in the US for was over? Do you understand that being employed in another country as a guest worker in no way entitles you to either citizenship or the right to remain in that country forever? Unless my memory fails me, your father worked in Saudi Arabia on a work visa. Have you no comprehension of how a guest worker program works? It does not matter if you have been working in another country for 10 years, when time comes for you to return to your home country according to your contract, you are expected to leave. It does not matter if you have made friends there or if you own a home there or if you have decided that you like living there better than in the country you are actually a citizen of, you need to return to your home country. Citizenship was never part of the deal. Why is this so difficult to understand?
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:56 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,708,999 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'm trying to 'get' this....you want us to ENFORCE our laws? Or NOT to enforce them? I thought all the anger out there was based, in large part, on the fact that we're now thinking about enforcing the law. You seem to suggest that NOT enforcing the law has gotten us to this present unhappy 'mess'. If that's what you're saying, you MIGHT be surprised to learn that that's EXACTLY what I've said, many times...that illegal immigration is a situation that SHOULD HAVE been addressed 20 years ago (i.e., "the law SHOULD have been enforced LONG ago").

Still, I think your argument is ultimately a weak one, because it's equivalent to saying, "Yes, I broke the law...but it's not MY fault...I broke the law because you LET me break it". While that may be factually true, it won't get you very far in this system, because you're not SUPPOSED to break the law, whether someone STOPS you, or not. That attitude is precisely why Third-World societies are so unpleasant; where one 'does what he wants, unless someone stops him'....and then, when someone STOPS him, he's 'oppressed'. Far better to live in a system where the laws are obeyed voluntarily, and people don't HAVE to be 'stopped' from doing what they want, because they feel an obligation to obey the (generally benevolent) law, whether a 'cop happens to be standing there' or not.

"It's YOUR fault that I broke the law" is the reasoning of a 6-year old, not an adult.
How can you stand this?
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:07 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
How can you stand this?
Lots of sedatives, and frequent trips outside for fresh air.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:39 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Thanks....I feel better now. Somehow I just KNEW that illegals weren't the problem, but I couldn't put it into words. You've done that for me; and for that, I thank you. Illegals aren't the problem, of COURSE...CITIZENS are!.....And CRIMINALS don't cause crime...lack of jobs does!....and so does lack of education (which is EVERYONE'S right, whether they desire to be educated or not; and even if they 'drop out').....yes....yes indeed.....I will remember that...(I MUST remember that, because at first, it's not obvious)...

Guess I just 'assumed'....and you know what happens when one ASSUMES....
Well, in the case for the bad economy...yeah it was citizens.
Look, if you truly believe that people are intrinsictly bad or good (implied by "Criminals cause crime!" ) then that's a really simplistic view of the problems in our society. My 10 year nephew independently commented on something. He said "Achoo (family nickname), What do people do if they don't work". I said they stay home or go with their friends. He replied "Wouldn't they get bored and maybe do something bad?" I said some would. Again, not that simplistic...but lack of jobs produces an inability to feed, clothes, and house oneself or others. It causes psychological despair. Hence why there is a DIRECT correlation with crime and the economic cycle. Crime wave of the 1980s, the crime bust of the late 1990s. Crime wave of the 1930s and the crime bust of the 1950s. There has been an uptick in property crimes. Criminals are people.

Poverty and lack of education can be a huge contributor to crime. Pitting the lower class against its self is one way that can contribute to crime and create a power play for the ruling class (Bush's top market were those that were lower middle class, less educated, and more apt to be nationalistic). He played on fear of the other. This is what the immigration debate is doing. It does not emphasize the need to help those that are already here to at least alleviate poverty and aid them. No, instead the majority of voices are swayed by warm fuzzy feelings of flags and green lawns. They fear a shift in the cultural landscape. They also are told that their jobs are unsafe, that they will be living in the third world, that their kids will be murdered. They have arguements that their taxes have increased significantly due to illegal immigration. Despite information saying that there are other larger causes for the economy, tax increases, and studies showing assimilation...people cling on to their flags and religion because they aren't told all of the story. They aren't told of how the global economy works. They aren't told of how American interests abroad can destroy nations. They aren't told of historical events that led up to our present situation. The best example are the thousands of people who bought homes only to loose them since they really had no clue of lending practices. People find a scapegoat for all their problems.

I agree illegal immigration has caused problems. Overcrowding in hospitals and schools are a big concern. There should be a method to work with Mexico and other nations to build a program that will allow a better system that addresses the needs of immigrants as well as the general population. Shooting people on the spot, pouring tons of money into projects that do not help the average citizen as well as immigrants, and simply perpetuating a cultural bias against recent immigrants (regardless of legality) is not the answer.
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,897,766 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Well, in the case for the bad economy...yeah it was citizens.
Look, if you truly believe that people are intrinsictly bad or good (implied by "Criminals cause crime!" ) then that's a really simplistic view of the problems in our society. My 10 year nephew independently commented on something. He said "Achoo (family nickname), What do people do if they don't work". I said they stay home or go with their friends. He replied "Wouldn't they get bored and maybe do something bad?" I said some would. Again, not that simplistic...but lack of jobs produces an inability to feed, clothes, and house oneself or others. It causes psychological despair. Hence why there is a DIRECT correlation with crime and the economic cycle. Crime wave of the 1980s, the crime bust of the late 1990s. Crime wave of the 1930s and the crime bust of the 1950s. There has been an uptick in property crimes. Criminals are people.

Poverty and lack of education can be a huge contributor to crime. Pitting the lower class against its self is one way that can contribute to crime and create a power play for the ruling class (Bush's top market were those that were lower middle class, less educated, and more apt to be nationalistic). He played on fear of the other. This is what the immigration debate is doing. It does not emphasize the need to help those that are already here to at least alleviate poverty and aid them. No, instead the majority of voices are swayed by warm fuzzy feelings of flags and green lawns. They fear a shift in the cultural landscape. They also are told that their jobs are unsafe, that they will be living in the third world, that their kids will be murdered. They have arguements that their taxes have increased significantly due to illegal immigration. Despite information saying that there are other larger causes for the economy, tax increases, and studies showing assimilation...people cling on to their flags and religion because they aren't told all of the story. They aren't told of how the global economy works. They aren't told of how American interests abroad can destroy nations. They aren't told of historical events that led up to our present situation. The best example are the thousands of people who bought homes only to loose them since they really had no clue of lending practices. People find a scapegoat for all their problems.

I agree illegal immigration has caused problems. Overcrowding in hospitals and schools are a big concern. There should be a method to work with Mexico and other nations to build a program that will allow a better system that addresses the needs of immigrants as well as the general population. Shooting people on the spot, pouring tons of money into projects that do not help the average citizen as well as immigrants, and simply perpetuating a cultural bias against recent immigrants (regardless of legality) is not the answer.
Of the great posts you've been putting out the past week, this is one of the best!
Would rep you if I could.
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:46 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I agree illegal immigration has caused problems. Overcrowding in hospitals and schools are a big concern. There should be a method to work with Mexico and other nations to build a program that will allow a better system that addresses the needs of immigrants as well as the general population. Shooting people on the spot, pouring tons of money into projects that do not help the average citizen as well as immigrants, and simply perpetuating a cultural bias against recent immigrants (regardless of legality) is not the answer.
Thank you...PRAISE you....and (hope I'm not stepping on any toes here) GOD BLESS YOU for the above 'morsel' of rational thought!! Difficult though it may have been to say so, my hat goes off to you for your candor. It puts you far ahead of so many of our fellow forum users.

I] "ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION HAS CAUSED PROBLEMS....OVERCROWDING is a BIG CONCERN"[/i]..yes YES!....

Again, thank you....and if we never again agree on ANYTHING, thanks for a glimpse (however brief) at your 'rational side'. I KNEW you had it in there, somewhere....(and NO, this doesn't make you a racist or a xenophobe or a 'hater')...
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:01 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,066,563 times
Reputation: 2244
dam those foreigners!!! legal or otherwise!!!!

thanks for being straight up, most posters here hide their disdain for all things "different". you just put it out there that you dont like foreigners(and their supposed effects). thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by rb62 View Post
It does not take a genius to figure out the damage Immigrants...legal, or otherwise cause this country. Just take a trip to ANY emergency room at any hospital they are full of them. The media is astonishingly sympathetic to immigrants ignoring the damage they have done to our economy, our health care, our education system, and our subsidies. Anti-immigrant sentiment is still in its infancy, and growing. I work in healthcare; you think these cases of tuberculosis, typhoid, diptheria are imaginary?? It's about as imaginary as the health insurance as they all carry. The sympathizers have created this laughable excuse, that "they do, the jobs Americans don't want to do." There is NO such thing as a job that an American won't do! There is, however, a job that will not support a citizen of this country enough money to live, therefore they will avoid that job. IF low paying jobs do not support a citizen, then they will definetly not support an immigrant either! Jobs that would traditionally be done by teenagers hoping to earn some extra money have dissapeared because of immigrants.

What exactly do you think someone who does not speak English, who has never been to school, who has children he or she has no means of supporting can offer a country, which only has use for specialized skills requiring years of formal academic education, if that (which is expensive to begin with) to this great country of ours?? They have nothing to offer, they are nothing but a liability.

California is becoming emblazoned as the poster child of what is ahead for the rest of this country. You see these people (foreigners) laughing and joking in our faces in broken English, if that. Laughing about the abuse they are allowed to get away with. Making babies to anchor their citizenship. One out of every seven legal workers in this country was born in a foreign country, this is one of the reasons why jobs are so scarce! Because immigration quotas have become so relaxed. Our economy will never fully recover unless we stop this insanity.
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