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Old 04-09-2009, 01:26 PM
 
365 posts, read 667,694 times
Reputation: 41

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Why shouldn't the US have sent them back? What part of 'guest worker program' do you not understand? They were allowed into the US as temporary workers, why should they not have been returned to their homeland when the the period of time they had agreed to work in the US for was over? Do you understand that being employed in another country as a guest worker in no way entitles you to either citizenship or the right to remain in that country forever? Unless my memory fails me, your father worked in Saudi Arabia on a work visa. Have you no comprehension of how a guest worker program works? It does not matter if you have been working in another country for 10 years, when time comes for you to return to your home country according to your contract, you are expected to leave. It does not matter if you have made friends there or if you own a home there or if you have decided that you like living there better than in the country you are actually a citizen of, you need to return to your home country. Citizenship was never part of the deal. Why is this so difficult to understand?
I understand quite well the one that doesnt understand is you.
what I am trying to say is that the MEXICAN goverment wanted and orderly non exploitable way to work with the usa. BUT since the usa thought Mexico was dictating how many guest workers came in and came out
they did something about it. So they broke the law that on paper.
usa and mexico were working accordingly by bribing and promoting illegal immigration. NOW THAT THIS MESS HAS HAPPEN whose to blame? yeah again poor mexico right. history has taught us usyless grant even HONORABLE ABE LINCOLN shows that we have always been a bully to mexico
and theres a lot of you here that keep mentioning that Mexico is a third world country this and that but societies that are more advance tend to do the wickest things sometimes. just look at our history prior 1965 and look at germany and japan. A lot of you might say texans fought for liberty and opression and again history all over elmentary, middle and high schools are teaching the correct way Mexican third world mentality prohibitated slavery something texans did not really liked and caused part of the problem. so take that third world mentality somewhere else because again WERE NOT THE NOBLEST WHEN IT COMES TO HISTORY.
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:34 PM
 
365 posts, read 667,694 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'm trying to 'get' this....you want us to ENFORCE our laws? Or NOT to enforce them? I thought all the anger out there was based, in large part, on the fact that we're now thinking about enforcing the law. You seem to suggest that NOT enforcing the law has gotten us to this present unhappy 'mess'. If that's what you're saying, you MIGHT be surprised to learn that that's EXACTLY what I've said, many times...that illegal immigration is a situation that SHOULD HAVE been addressed 20 years ago (i.e., "the law SHOULD have been enforced LONG ago").

Still, I think your argument is ultimately a weak one, because it's equivalent to saying, "Yes, I broke the law...but it's not MY fault...I broke the law because you LET me break it". While that may be factually true, it won't get you very far in this system, because you're not SUPPOSED to break the law, whether someone STOPS you, or not. That attitude is precisely why Third-World societies are so unpleasant; where one 'does what he wants, unless someone stops him'....and then, when someone STOPS him, he's 'oppressed'. Far better to live in a system where the laws are obeyed voluntarily, and people don't HAVE to be 'stopped' from doing what they want, because they feel an obligation to obey the (generally benevolent) law, whether a 'cop happens to be standing there' or not.

"It's YOUR fault that I broke the law" is the reasoning of a 6-year old, not an adult.
look I am not arguing if they broke the law or did not...THEY BROKE THE LAW...but tell me this when you say "it wont get you very far in this system" come again? so in other words people here living illegaly are not using the system.

lets say that by a miracle we did enforce our laws, and try to send them back in an orderly manner. BUT are we going to clean house? because all of those politicians that allow this human catostrophe to continue yes catostrophe why because those people were coming in a uncontrollable way now there being displaced again so you tell me
since 1943 with the bracero program....and history has proven to YOU
that everytime it falls back to the same problem and that is bringing cheap labor to make more profits. who would be to blame then?

remember those illegals are trying TO SURVIVE...what excuse does our
noble politicians and noble merchantst have?
come on buddy that is not a third world mentality that is not having a heart in your chest and it doesnt matter where she or he is from.

i can tell you bottom line that no non speaking hispanic, 7 grade education ever cheated or short changed his boss. because modern run businees will squeeze every ounce of energy you have in order to get paid your minimum wage.
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,154 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Thank you...PRAISE you....and (hope I'm not stepping on any toes here) GOD BLESS YOU for the above 'morsel' of rational thought!! Difficult though it may have been to say so, my hat goes off to you for your candor. It puts you far ahead of so many of our fellow forum users.

I] "ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION HAS CAUSED PROBLEMS....OVERCROWDING is a BIG CONCERN"[/i]..yes YES!....

Again, thank you....and if we never again agree on ANYTHING, thanks for a glimpse (however brief) at your 'rational side'. I KNEW you had it in there, somewhere....(and NO, this doesn't make you a racist or a xenophobe or a 'hater')...
Almost all "pro-illegals" acknowledge that there are some issues around illegal immigration.
Whether you "believe" them as being "sincere", is another story.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:52 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by iturbide1981 View Post
?
come on buddy that is not a third world mentality that is not having a heart in your chest and it doesnt matter where she or he is from.

i can tell you bottom line that no non speaking hispanic, 7 grade education ever cheated or short changed his boss. because modern run businees will squeeze every ounce of energy you have in order to get paid your minimum wage.
I have a heart in my chest...and that heart caused me to support several amnesties over the years; it caused me to befriend plenty of illegal immigrants, almost all of them from Mexico...to help them locate housing, to help them buy car insurance, to translate for them, to accompany them to the DMV and even to cash a few checks out of my OWN POCKET....and to haul a few of their wives and kiddies to MY dentist, who ALSO has a heart in his chest, does volunteer work in Baja California, and agrees to work on them for nearly FREE. And you've never heard ME accuse 7th-grade-educated illegals of being lazy, and you never will. What you HAVE heard, is that illegal immigration, once a 'victimless crime', is now a HUGE mess, and a serious, divisive issue...and while I still have a HEART in my CHEST, buddy, I ALSO have a BRAIN in my HEAD.....and from this point on, I'm planning to begin using it a little more.

Enough is enough, 'heart' or NO heart.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by iturbide1981 View Post
look I am not arguing if they broke the law or did not...THEY BROKE THE LAW...but tell me this when you say "it wont get you very far in this system" come again? so in other words people here living illegaly are not using the system.

lets say that by a miracle we did enforce our laws, and try to send them back in an orderly manner. BUT are we going to clean house? because all of those politicians that allow this human catostrophe to continue yes catostrophe why because those people were coming in a uncontrollable way now there being displaced again so you tell me
since 1943 with the bracero program....and history has proven to YOU
that everytime it falls back to the same problem and that is bringing cheap labor to make more profits. who would be to blame then?

remember those illegals are trying TO SURVIVE...what excuse does our
noble politicians and noble merchantst have?

come on buddy that is not a third world mentality that is not having a heart in your chest and it doesnt matter where she or he is from.

i can tell you bottom line that no non speaking hispanic, 7 grade education ever cheated or short changed his boss. because modern run businees will squeeze every ounce of energy you have in order to get paid your minimum wage.
If discussing Mexicans------------let them survive in Mexico. As it is: obesity; not starvation is now a problem SoB.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:03 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
1,030 posts, read 1,255,028 times
Reputation: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
We hear the same stats, quotes, anecdotes, figures, claims about illegals all the time in this forum.
Sometimes, claims and stats that have been debunked over and over still make their way on here every now and then.
Many times, what "anti-illegals" say is something that has been repeated by people all over the internet..city-data, alipac, blogs, youtube, yahoo answers, the comment section of news stories involving Latinos in anyway etc.
Forgetting that hardcore "anti-illegals" seem to spend a lot more time on the internet researching and commenting on illegals, and you can probably see the same people all over the internet, I have come to a conclusion: maybe all these people with their "personal stories" and "facts" are getting them from a few same sources.

While I can't speak on the reputation and reliability of these sites, since I'm not too familiar with them, they provide an interesting read and perspective on the information being pumped out about illegal aliens, and the people that eat it up.

Right-Wing Media Using Immigration Debate to Mainstream Hate | Immigration | AlterNet

The above article was based on the following study:
Fear and Loathing in Prime Time: Immigration Myths and Cable News


Before you guys get all angry and worked up like always, before you go in on your hang ups over using "immigrant" toward "illegals", before you shut your minds off, read these articles thoroughly. Consider the possibility that you might be being fed misinformation and propaganda.

Illegal immigration is an issue to deal with, but know the real reasons and know the real situation. Don't buy into extremist fear mongering, sensationalism, and propaganda.
sorry, you lost me at Media Matters sponsored....
Really, my problem is that they are here illegally. I really don't care why they came, it is not my problem your own country is bad, stay there and FIX IT!!!
What happens if I rob a bank???
I go to jail.
What happens if an person comes here illegally?
We give them a job and amnesty.
Why are they allowed to break the law to come here, when there are ways to come here legally???
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:08 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
1,030 posts, read 1,255,028 times
Reputation: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
I am going to limit my focus to the MediaMatters article- Fear and Loathing in Prime Time.

Fear and Loathing in Prime Time: Immigration Myths and Cable News

There are many issues addressed in this article, I will not comment on all of them.

The main problem I have with the MM article is that they freely interchange the terms 'immigrant' and 'illegal immigrant' or 'undocumented worker' throughout the entire article. These terms are not the same and denote specific and important differences between the groups as has been noted time and time again on this forum. This makes for rather slow reading since you have to constantly be checking to make sure they are talking about what they claim to be talking about.



The authors then go on to cite four articles to support their position. Each article fails to differentiate between legal and illegal immigrants.

- a 2005 study showed that a)immigrants committed fewer crimes than native-born citizens, and b)that a greater proportion of immigrants in a neighborhood was associated with lower rates of crime.
Legal and illegal immigrants are lumped together as 'immigrants' so this does not give us data on the crime rate of illegal immigrants, which is what they are supposed to be discussing.

- census data showed that the incarceration rate for men aged 18-39 was five times higher for men born in the US then for foreign born men.

Once again, the category 'foreign born' includes those here legally and illegally.

-a California study showed that the foreign-born are much less than those born in the US

Same thing.

One researcher, Robert J. Sampson states that the data shows illegal aliens are "disproportionately less likely to be involved in many acts of deviance,crime, drunk driving,any number of things that sort of imperil our well-being".

The source document is an April 2007 article from Salon concerning the dustup beween Bill O'Reilly and Geraldo.



Salon.com News | Memo to Bill O'Reilly: More immigrants equals less crime

I am not sure if this would pass muster with an individual with a strong background in sociology.............


Their main issue seems to be with the term 'crime wave'. They are free to disprove of using this particular phrase, but that does not change the fact that crimes are committed by people who never should have been in the US in the first place. They also seem to focus on crimes that end up with the perpetrator in jail. This ignores the gamut of lesser crimes that nonetheless can make life very unpleasant for Americans and legal immigrants, such as ID theft, driving without a license and having multiple families living in a home zoned for one family in total disregard of local law.

My opinion for what it is worth is that both sides are a bit over the top. The three people the authors accuse of promoting the 'crime wave' idea are TV show hosts. These people are often not known for their calm demeanor and dispassionate assessments of a situation. Likewise, those on the opposing team seem to be a bit selective in their use of the available data.

More to come later.

AB

I'm sorry, but aren't 100% of illegals guilty of committing a crime? or did I miss something.
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,154 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrfitchett4 View Post
sorry, you lost me at Media Matters sponsored....
Really, my problem is that they are here illegally. I really don't care why they came, it is not my problem your own country is bad, stay there and FIX IT!!!
What happens if I rob a bank???
I go to jail.
What happens if an person comes here illegally?
We give them a job and amnesty.
Why are they allowed to break the law to come here, when there are ways to come here legally???
Why? Do you know something I should know about Media Matters?
Or was it hard to follow for some reason?

People ignore the debunked myths and lies saying its unimportant, and in reality it really is irrelevant Illegal is illegal.

But obviously those made up crime stats are important to their argument, because they get mentioned here ALL THE TIME.
They mention them all the time as justification for the level of hate they have for these people, calling them "criminally insane", a culture of violent criminals, reason for having shoot to kill orders on the border, or to invade Mexico and blow it to kingdom come.

But when those "facts" and "stats" are challenged, they suddenly become "irrelevant".
Theyre only relevant when they aren't challenged, and are allowed to sensationalize the issue.
I don't doubt even after this post, people will still go into the same old sh--. Without the exaggerated claims and fearmongering, they would have to have a more rational discussion on what problems illegal immigration present and how we should approach it.

Instead, they prefer to portray them as raping, murdering, diseased, insane monsters, and themselves as righteous guardians or white knights of the country...from a computer.
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:45 AM
 
2,381 posts, read 4,410,824 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrfitchett4 View Post
sorry, you lost me at Media Matters sponsored....
Really, my problem is that they are here illegally. I really don't care why they came, it is not my problem your own country is bad, stay there and FIX IT!!!
What happens if I rob a bank???
I go to jail.
What happens if an person comes here illegally?
We give them a job and amnesty.
Why are they allowed to break the law to come here, when there are ways to come here legally???
Reality is even bank robbers get a forgiveness from society after doing their time in prison.

Even those that entered the country illegally pay a fine and now days, get deported for a year before they can enter the country again, legally.

Fact: If they came here illegally it is because they cannot come here legally. The government asks for your wealth (i.e. ownership documents to a home, business, etc) able to care for yourself (as well as a sponsor) and not a burden on our society. Is it our problem? Of course not. However, our system facilitates a job, home, a car, bank account to undocumented immigrants, making it easy for them to come here illegally and settle as immigrants. That system is broken and we all can agree that laws need to be enforced. Therefore, to stop future immigrants from feeling invited, it is vital that we enforce our laws but also legalize those that have worked under a broken system we provided "created" for them. In the long run, it will benefit America by getting rid of "lowering wages" and contributing more taxes as well as paying the fine for braking the law...another contribution to our economy.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:16 AM
 
Location: Lake Norman, North Carolina
1,213 posts, read 1,398,109 times
Reputation: 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Why? Do you know something I should know about Media Matters?
Or was it hard to follow for some reason?

People ignore the debunked myths and lies saying its unimportant, and in reality it really is irrelevant Illegal is illegal.

But obviously those made up crime stats are important to their argument, because they get mentioned here ALL THE TIME.
They mention them all the time as justification for the level of hate they have for these people, calling them "criminally insane", a culture of violent criminals, reason for having shoot to kill orders on the border, or to invade Mexico and blow it to kingdom come.

But when those "facts" and "stats" are challenged, they suddenly become "irrelevant".
Theyre only relevant when they aren't challenged, and are allowed to sensationalize the issue.
I don't doubt even after this post, people will still go into the same old sh--. Without the exaggerated claims and fearmongering, they would have to have a more rational discussion on what problems illegal immigration present and how we should approach it.

Instead, they prefer to portray them as raping, murdering, diseased, insane monsters, and themselves as righteous guardians or white knights of the country...from a computer.
Oh, nobody told you that Media Matters was nothing more than left wing watchdog media with no more credibility that the Daily Kos? MM's usual modus operandi is to determine a conclusion that they want to reach and then go about cherry picking evidence to try to prove their already reached conclusion.
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