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Old 04-10-2009, 03:28 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
3,205 posts, read 2,866,485 times
Reputation: 2913

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I do not doubt there are some cases of this sort of activity across the net. I know for a fact there are many people who literally scower the internet for places to leave their messages while simultaneously lifting messages and redistributing them as well. But looking at the situation as a whole, most of us are victims of misinformation and that info. is not coming from the anti illegal side.

See, our mainstream media sources only report what the public is supposed to see. Protesters for amnesty will be met with eager mics, while anti illegal rallies are pushed to the back of the business section. Our government does NOT want to send these people back. They are too important to the system therefore, there will be no mass exodus because of our government actually enforcing our laws. Constant TV programs in support of illegals, constant concessions by our own government for illegals, the list goes on and on. And all the while we are fed the same old propaganda about how they only do the jobs we don't want, or how they are so much more hard working. These and many other stereotypes are blatant lies, propaganda aimed at keeping the presence of illegals a must.

So while I am sure there is plenty of misinformation on the net in regards to illegals, I know from experience that the stereotypes perpetrated by the pro-illegals about Americans are lies(for the most part), and Americans will work if they are given the chance.

But hey, why take the opinion of an American construction worker seriously right? Probably just more misinformation.
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,154 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roguer View Post
Well, the study that you and your cohorts are so giddy about, 'Fear & Loathing in Prime Time' is asinine.



Any study not based on accuracy but how often claims were made is nothing more that trying to make something out of nothing and getting.... nothing.

I'm sure the follow up study will be on Keith Oberfugle, matthews and cupcake Maddow and how often they have tried to make something out of nothing to get nothing?




awww..
Instead of reading where they myths were presented, and debunked, did you read that little sentence and go "ding! ding! ding!" thinking you could just repeat that, and not have to actually defend those myths?

I think what is being said in that part went just a little over your head.

Quote:
In order to make the analysis as straightforward as possible, we did not evaluate the accuracy of every particular claim made on these topics. Instead, we sought merely to assess how often the claims were made. It is possible to leave a mistaken impression while avoiding specific falsehoods.
Try to figure out what that paragraph means.

Either way, they present myths that are accepted in forums like this one. They present some particular claims and reference specific quotes. They then disprove them. And they provide citations for their sources.

Do you want to address those at all? Can you prove them?
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,154 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reads2MUCH View Post
I do not doubt there are some cases of this sort of activity across the net. I know for a fact there are many people who literally scower the internet for places to leave their messages while simultaneously lifting messages and redistributing them as well. But looking at the situation as a whole, most of us are victims of misinformation and that info. is not coming from the anti illegal side.

See, our mainstream media sources only report what the public is supposed to see. Protesters for amnesty will be met with eager mics, while anti illegal rallies are pushed to the back of the business section. Our government does NOT want to send these people back. They are too important to the system therefore, there will be no mass exodus because of our government actually enforcing our laws. Constant TV programs in support of illegals, constant concessions by our own government for illegals, the list goes on and on. And all the while we are fed the same old propaganda about how they only do the jobs we don't want, or how they are so much more hard working. These and many other stereotypes are blatant lies, propaganda aimed at keeping the presence of illegals a must.

So while I am sure there is plenty of misinformation on the net in regards to illegals, I know from experience that the stereotypes perpetrated by the pro-illegals about Americans are lies(for the most part), and Americans will work if they are given the chance.

But hey, why take the opinion of an American construction worker seriously right? Probably just more misinformation.
Are you trying to spin it? You are trying to downplay how much the "anti illegal side" is sensationalizing the issue.

Instead of acknowledging the specific claims that you guys thrive on for your agenda being debunked, you're trying to say you guys are innocent, and it's really the pro illegals who are the liars.



I mean, it's a weird thing to do. You're faced with a major questioning of some pretty widespread "facts", and you're kind of ignoring it, opting instead to attack the other side.
This should more of a reflection of what's going on in your lobbyist group's community.
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:13 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,712,772 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Are you trying to spin it? You are trying to downplay how much the "anti illegal side" is sensationalizing the issue.

Instead of acknowledging the specific claims that you guys thrive on for your agenda being debunked, you're trying to say you guys are innocent, and it's really the pro illegals who are the liars.



I mean, it's a weird thing to do. You're faced with a major questioning of some pretty widespread "facts", and you're kind of ignoring it, opting instead to attack the other side.
This should more of a reflection of what's going on in your lobbyist group's community.
Oh honestly!

This article consists of a number of carefully worded 'myths' that they then go on to supposedly 'debunk, all the while missing the forest for the trees.

Quote:
Social Services and Taxes

The Myth: Undocumented immigrants consume a disproportionate amount of social services and don't pay taxes, thereby constituting a drain on American society.

The Truth: Some believe that undocumented immigrants benefit from federal programs such as food stamps, Medicaid, SCHIP, and welfare. In fact, undocumented immigrants are ineligible to receive these benefits; anyone seeking to obtain them must provide proof of legal status.
The food stamp program now goes by the moniker WIC.

Quote:
Women, Infants and Children Program (WIC) –

Provides food benefits, in the form of vouchers, for low-income families to obtain certain foods including infant formula.

Immigrants of any status who are otherwise eligible may receive WIC food supplements.
*

What part of 'immigrants of any status who are otherwise eligible may receive WIC' (food stamps) do you fail to understand? It sure sounds to me like illegal aliens can get WIC, how does it sound to you?

Illegal aliens are 'not eligible' for Medicaid? Guess what? They may technically not be eligible for Medicare/Medicaid, but both programs end up paying out hundreds of millions each year to hospitals and health care providers to help cover the costs of caring for illegal aliens who do not bother to pay their bills.

The good people at Media Matters emphatically state that illegal aliens are not eligible for benefits from federal programs, then they put this in one of their footnotes:

Quote:
[25] Under federal law, hospitals that accept Medicaid are prohibited from turning away anyone requiring emergency care, regardless of their immigration status. The federal government does reimburse hospitals for a portion of what they spend on emergency care for undocumented immigrants, under a program called Federal Reimbursement of Emergency Health Services Furnished to Undocumented Aliens.
The Federal Reimbursement Program is part of the Medicare Modernization Act (2003).

Quote:
Federal Reimbursement of Emergency Health Services Furnished to Undocumented Aliens Section 1011: Fact Sheet The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) wants to inform and remind hospitals, physicians, and ambulance services that funds are available for certain emergency health services provided to undocumented aliens. Section 1011 of the Medicare Modernization Act of 2003 (MMA) provides $250 million each year for Fiscal Years (FYs) 2005 - 2008 for payments to eligible providers for emergency services furnished to undocumented and other specified aliens.
Medicare/Medicaid end up coughing up millions to help pay for the unreimbursed care that hospitals are forced to provide to illegal aliens, but illegal aliens do not benefit from these programs. Got it.

http://tinyurl.com/c96etj (broken link)

Unless my memory fail me, legislation was recently passed that will also give illegal aliens access to SCHIP.

Let's take a second look at the 'truth', as defined by Media Matters.

The Truth: Some believe that undocumented immigrants benefit from federal programs such as food stamps, Medicaid, SCHIP, and welfare. In fact, undocumented immigrants are ineligible to receive these benefits; anyone seeking to obtain them must provide proof of legal status.

You know, if illegal aliens can get WIC, it would seem to me that they benefit from that federal program. And while they technically are not eligible for Medicare/Medicaid, they sure as he11 benefit from these programs, because if Uncle Sam did not step in and prop up the hospitals that are overrun with illegals with US taxpayer dollars, I strongly suspect they would be closing their doors, leaving the illegals (and everybody else) with no ER at all.

This section of your article is nothing but disinformation and half truths. Go ahead. Prove me wrong.
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, New York
147 posts, read 186,404 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I am extremely prejudiced against illegal aliens-----------irrespective of actual race/ethnicity.

Legal immigrants: Mexican or otherwise are welcome here in the USA.

Illegal aliens are almost always criminals and need to be treated as such.

They ARE criminals because they come into the country illegally. That's the common misconception. "Not all illegal immigrants are criminals", but they are just by being here. That doesn't seem to matter to some people.
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, New York
147 posts, read 186,404 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Oh honestly!

This article consists of a number of carefully worded 'myths' that they then go on to supposedly 'debunk, all the while missing the forest for the trees.



The food stamp program now goes by the moniker WIC.



*

What part of 'immigrants of any status who are otherwise eligible may receive WIC' (food stamps) do you fail to understand? It sure sounds to me like illegal aliens can get WIC, how does it sound to you?

Illegal aliens are 'not eligible' for Medicaid? Guess what? They may technically not be eligible for Medicare/Medicaid, but both programs end up paying out hundreds of millions each year to hospitals and health care providers to help cover the costs of caring for illegal aliens who do not bother to pay their bills.

The good people at Media Matters emphatically state that illegal aliens are not eligible for benefits from federal programs, then they put this in one of their footnotes:



The Federal Reimbursement Program is part of the Medicare Modernization Act (2003).



http://tinyurl.com/c96etj (broken link)

Unless my memory fail me, legislation was recently passed that will also give illegal aliens access to SCHIP.

Let's take a second look at the 'truth', as defined by Media Matters.

The Truth: Some believe that undocumented immigrants benefit from federal programs such as food stamps, Medicaid, SCHIP, and welfare. In fact, undocumented immigrants are ineligible to receive these benefits; anyone seeking to obtain them must provide proof of legal status.

You know, if illegal aliens can get WIC, it would seem to me that they benefit from that federal program. And while they technically are not eligible for Medicare/Medicaid, they sure as he11 benefit from these programs, because if Uncle Sam did not step in and prop up the hospitals that are overrun with illegals with US taxpayer dollars, I strongly suspect they would be closing their doors, leaving the illegals (and everybody else) with no ER at all.

This section of your article is nothing but disinformation and half truths. Go ahead. Prove me wrong.

Let's also remember that many illegals DO recieve benefits through their children. THEY may not be eligible(and there are few things) for some services, but the children are. eg. they have many because some services are based on family size.
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:24 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,712,772 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negrapola1975 View Post
Let's also remember that many illegals DO recieve benefits through their children. THEY may not be eligible(and there are few things) for some services, but the children are. eg. they have many because some services are based on family size.
I agree. There is also document fraud that goes on that allows illegals to collect benefits they should not be receiving. It is simply ridiculous for this article to imply that they do not benefit from any federal programs. They most assuredly do.
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,154 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Oh honestly!

This article consists of a number of carefully worded 'myths' that they then go on to supposedly 'debunk, all the while missing the forest for the trees.



The food stamp program now goes by the moniker WIC.



*

What part of 'immigrants of any status who are otherwise eligible may receive WIC' (food stamps) do you fail to understand? It sure sounds to me like illegal aliens can get WIC, how does it sound to you?

Illegal aliens are 'not eligible' for Medicaid? Guess what? They may technically not be eligible for Medicare/Medicaid, but both programs end up paying out hundreds of millions each year to hospitals and health care providers to help cover the costs of caring for illegal aliens who do not bother to pay their bills.

The good people at Media Matters emphatically state that illegal aliens are not eligible for benefits from federal programs, then they put this in one of their footnotes:



The Federal Reimbursement Program is part of the Medicare Modernization Act (2003).



Medicare/Medicaid end up coughing up millions to help pay for the unreimbursed care that hospitals are forced to provide to illegal aliens, but illegal aliens do not benefit from these programs. Got it.

http://tinyurl.com/c96etj (broken link)

Unless my memory fail me, legislation was recently passed that will also give illegal aliens access to SCHIP.

Let's take a second look at the 'truth', as defined by Media Matters.

The Truth: Some believe that undocumented immigrants benefit from federal programs such as food stamps, Medicaid, SCHIP, and welfare. In fact, undocumented immigrants are ineligible to receive these benefits; anyone seeking to obtain them must provide proof of legal status.

You know, if illegal aliens can get WIC, it would seem to me that they benefit from that federal program. And while they technically are not eligible for Medicare/Medicaid, they sure as he11 benefit from these programs, because if Uncle Sam did not step in and prop up the hospitals that are overrun with illegals with US taxpayer dollars, I strongly suspect they would be closing their doors, leaving the illegals (and everybody else) with no ER at all.

This section of your article is nothing but disinformation and half truths. Go ahead. Prove me wrong.
Food Stamps and WIC program are not the same thing. I don't know who told you that.
How are they lying?
Illegals don't benefit from any of the programs they mentioned.
They are eligible for WIC and School lunch, and those appear to be in place to help children that are living in this country. Kind of a humanitarian thing.

I don't doubt there is some kind of strain on hospitals by illegal immigrants. But the articles were pretty specific in what claims they were challenging.
Most of the stuff you guys are attacking are asterisks and footnotes they include themselves. They're covering their asses and aren't trying to just make crazy claims like people on your side. They include sources and explain how they're coming to their conclusions.

But how do you feel about the claim that illegals are still paying into the system through taxes payed during purchases, taken off their paychecks, renter's tax?

From an article back in '05:

Quote:
Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.
Quote:
Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.
The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.
In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.
The people who are mostly contributing to that file were illegal immigrants.

The New York Times > Business > Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

The article is clearly sympathetic to illegals, but how do you feel about the actual numbers being brought up?
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:20 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,712,772 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Food Stamps and WIC program are not the same thing. I don't know who told you that.
How are they lying?
Illegals don't benefit from any of the programs they mentioned.

They are eligible for WIC and School lunch, and those appear to be in place to help children that are living in this country. Kind of a humanitarian thing.

I don't doubt there is some kind of strain on hospitals by illegal immigrants. But the articles were pretty specific in what claims they were challenging.
Most of the stuff you guys are attacking are asterisks and footnotes they include themselves. They're covering their asses and aren't trying to just make crazy claims like people on your side. They include sources and explain how they're coming to their conclusions.

But how do you feel about the claim that illegals are still paying into the system through taxes payed during purchases, taken off their paychecks, renter's tax?

From an article back in '05:

The people who are mostly contributing to that file were illegal immigrants.

The New York Times > Business > Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

The article is clearly sympathetic to illegals, but how do you feel about the actual numbers being brought up?

Yes they do.


Quote:
The Truth: Some believe that undocumented immigrants benefit from federal programs such as food stamps, Medicaid, SCHIP, and welfare. In fact, undocumented immigrants are ineligible to receive these benefits; anyone seeking to obtain them must provide proof of legal status.

Quote:
llegal immigrants are generally barred from Medicaid, but can get coverage for treatment of emergency medical conditions, including labor and delivery.
U.S. Tightens Medicaid Rules For Babies of Illegal Aliens - The Tech
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,899,154 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Yeah, it's very limited coverage intended for emergency use. And yes, it used by women having babies a lot. Unfortunate.
What do you think about the claims that illegals are paying into the system I just asked you about?
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