U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-03-2011, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
2,868 posts, read 4,051,629 times
Reputation: 5229

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Crime is pretty much defined by going to jail. It is offenses for which jail time may be required.
"Crime is pretty much defined by going to jail." Is that right, and by who's definition is that? So not matter how many crimes you get away with, or no matter how many crimes you're excused from, you are not a criminal?

OK olecapt, I really think you've over used the"They are not criminals card."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-03-2011, 08:54 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,318,353 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Strongly asserting your incorrect view merely shows that you are unable to defend it.
That is your opinion. However the view is correct.

Quote:
It is often not criminal. Now get over it. Or show that it is always criminial.
It IS a criminal act against the Code, however it is not always prosecuted or penalized as such.

Quote:
I would particularly like to see a reference that shows all violations of the US Code are criminal.
Off the top of my head, I don't have a specific US Code quote for "all crimes" (my context was illegal entry), but I'll see if I can find one for illegal entry .

Here is how the term "crime" is defined by Black's Law and Legal Dictionary (an excellent resource tool for definition of terms):

Quote:
Crime:

A type of behavior that has been defined by the state, as deserving of punishment which usually includes imprisonment. Crimes and their punishments are defined by Congress and state legislatures.
Under that definition, illegal entry is a crime, imprisonment being one of the forms of punishment available to the prosecutor and sentencing judge, if so desired. Though, it need not be prosecuted or sentenced as such, if not desired.

Here, read the US Code language again:

Any alien who

(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 09:18 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,583,249 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
That is your opinion. However the view is correct.

It IS a criminal act against the Code, however it is not always prosecuted or penalized as such.

Off the top of my head, I don't have a specific US Code quote for "all crimes" (my context was illegal entry), but I'll see if I can find one for illegal entry .

Here is how the term "crime" is defined by Black's Law and Legal Dictionary (an excellent resource tool for definition of terms):

Under that definition, illegal entry is a crime, imprisonment being one of the forms of punishment available to the prosecutor and sentencing judge, if so desired. Though, it need not be prosecuted or sentenced as such, if not desired.

Here, read the US Code language again:

Any alien who

(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
Sorry but you are playing the strawman game. At that you will win. But in reality you will not do so well.

There is no stipulation that our illegal entered illegally. And part of the time he did not.

So provide how it is proven the illegal who entered legally did not.

And how the illegal who did enter illegally will be proven to have done so.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 09:20 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,318,353 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
How so? Given the random illegal on the street...prove...without the testimony of the illegal... that they crossed the border without proper protocol. Note they well may not have.

I give you a 25 year old who has been in the states 20 years. Prove he ever violated any US law.

That they are here illegally is clear.
Well, you've answered your own question here. If they are here illegally, of which you say is clear, then they ARE in violation of a US Code. Which code, under your hypothetical case, would need to be determined.

It may not be a violation of improper entry (such as those who overstay a visa) but none the less, if they are here illegal in violation of a US Code, punishable with imprisonment, they are criminals.

Quote:
But you appear to have some view that it is obvious they have committed EWI.

Prove it...beyond a reasonable doubt.

YOu actually are not listening. Both the letter of the law and the practical law says don't try and prove EWI. You can't...and it costs money and time.
Again, it's not that the Federal Government can't make the case or is somehow unable to legally do so against illegal entry (nor does the US Code tell them not to), but rather that it may not be prudent to spend time and the public's resources to prosecute it, when a simple deportation will get similar results. However, this course of action does not negate that a violation, or that a crime against the US Code has taken place.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 09:32 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,318,353 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Sorry but you are playing the strawman game. At that you will win. But in reality you will not do so well.

There is no stipulation that our illegal entered illegally. And part of the time he did not.
Of course. You take each case on it's own merits. If the Fed's believe they have a case, they can certainly make the case. Trust me on this. They have the ability to do so.

Quote:
So provide how it is proven the illegal who entered legally did not.

And how the illegal who did enter illegally will be proven to have done so.
You're asking me to try and prove true a hypothetical case that is not true. Why would I want to do that?

As for the second case. With enough time and money, it can be done. However, it may not be practical to do so without sufficient motivation that warrants it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 09:34 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,583,249 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Well, you've answered your own question here. If they are here illegally, of which you say is clear, then they ARE in violation of a US Code. Which code, under your hypothetical case, would need to be determined.

It may not be a violation of improper entry (such as those who overstay a visa) but none the less, if they are here illegal in violation of a US Code, punishable with imprisonment, they are criminals.

Again, it's not that the Federal Government can't make the case or is somehow unable to legally do so against illegal entry (nor does the US Code tell them not to), but rather that it may not be prudent to spend time and the public's resources to prosecute it, when a simple deportation will get similar results. However, this course of action does not negate that a violation, or that a crime against the US Code has taken place.
Again...

We quoted it above..

Quote:
unlawful presence does not constitute a criminal offense.9
The Federal Government in the person of the CRS says it is not a criminal offense.

You know better?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,243,145 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by makossa View Post
"Crime is pretty much defined by going to jail." Is that right, and by who's definition is that? So not matter how many crimes you get away with, or no matter how many crimes you're excused from, you are not a criminal?

OK olecapt, I really think you've over used the"They are not criminals card."
That's called the as* kissers card.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,119 posts, read 20,210,180 times
Reputation: 8209
Is employing illegals a CRIME
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 09:43 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,292,341 times
Reputation: 17985
Quite simply being i the coutry illegal is a crime on the federal books.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2011, 09:44 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,583,249 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by makossa View Post
"Crime is pretty much defined by going to jail." Is that right, and by who's definition is that? So not matter how many crimes you get away with, or no matter how many crimes you're excused from, you are not a criminal?

OK olecapt, I really think you've over used the"They are not criminals card."
You have no idea what you are talking about.

You would be wise to stay out of things you don't understand. It avoids embarassment.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top