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Old 06-04-2011, 09:35 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Illegal Entry in the US is a crime. That has been a given since this thread started if you bothered to read it.

Illegal Presence in the US is not.

In general illegal aliens are found in the second category. There were 77,000 arrests for illegal entry in 2009. That is arrests...not convictions. Something less than 20% the number of deportees.
That may be true but just how dumb is that? One can enter illegally and it's a crime but being here illegally is not? I mean does anyone see the stupidy of that? It makes no sense whatsover. Who in heck wrote these laws?
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
2,868 posts, read 4,040,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about.

You would be wise to stay out of things you don't understand. It avoids embarassment.
As usual olecapt you continue to split hairs and ignore common sense. You have no real credibility.
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:43 AM
 
15,924 posts, read 16,847,914 times
Reputation: 7619
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Illegal Entry in the US is a crime. That has been a given since this thread started if you bothered to read it.

Illegal Presence in the US is not.
Hmmm, crossing into the United States without permission is illegal entry, a crime.

Deport all illegal aliens as they have no rights in this country......Makes perfect sense to me....


http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s131/iriewoolf/IllegalAlienCriminals.jpg (broken link)
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:18 AM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,479,957 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
That may be true but just how dumb is that? One can enter illegally and it's a crime but being here illegally is not? I mean does anyone see the stupidy of that? It makes no sense whatsover. Who in heck wrote these laws?
YOu are not thinking it through. In the general course of international commerce we do not want a lot of violations such as over staying a visa to be criminal. There are lots of people in the business world who travel extensively and get trapped once in a while on such things. I had a commercial visa into Japan for some years. I don't think the Japanese would want to arrest me if I had been there on a long stay and it expired. And it was routine to violate the laws of Brazil by sending in commercial visitors on tourist visas. Done routinely in Mexico as well. Clearly a violation but seldom noticed by the recieving country.

So if you start making things criminal you start to discourage travel and tourism and cost your country money. If you listen to the travel industry at the moment we are costing the US billions by our immigration policy on students and tourists.

So you set it up so you can send them home and even hold them in the interim...but you don't want or need criminal penalties.

The real problem occurs if you allow millions into a class planned for a few thousand. And that is the actual US problem.
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:27 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,690,207 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Illegal Entry in the US is a crime. That has been a given since this thread started if you bothered to read it.

Illegal Presence in the US is not.

In general illegal aliens are found in the second category. There were 77,000 arrests for illegal entry in 2009. That is arrests...not convictions. Something less than 20% the number of deportees.
Stepping over the border is actually not much of a crime in itself. In many parts of the border, it's so open that you could inadvertanly come over not knowing there was a border there.

Working illegally in this country whether you are taking a job where you are paid in cash under the table or whether you had to purchase a stolen social security number is criminal.
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Old 06-06-2011, 08:32 AM
 
Location: central Oregon
1,856 posts, read 2,025,067 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
YOu are not thinking it through. In the general course of international commerce we do not want a lot of violations such as over staying a visa to be criminal. There are lots of people in the business world who travel extensively and get trapped once in a while on such things. I had a commercial visa into Japan for some years. I don't think the Japanese would want to arrest me if I had been there on a long stay and it expired. And it was routine to violate the laws of Brazil by sending in commercial visitors on tourist visas. Done routinely in Mexico as well. Clearly a violation but seldom noticed by the recieving country.

So if you start making things criminal you start to discourage travel and tourism and cost your country money. If you listen to the travel industry at the moment we are costing the US billions by our immigration policy on students and tourists.

So you set it up so you can send them home and even hold them in the interim...but you don't want or need criminal penalties.

The real problem occurs if you allow millions into a class planned for a few thousand. And that is the actual US problem.
I totally understand where you are coming from with this. Illegal entry is not the same as illegal presence.
However, those who DID enter illegally ARE criminals who are present illegally.
Those who entered on a visa and overstayed (or in your example, had one expire on them) are not HERE illegally because they had permission to be here. That is the difference between the two groups and they are both being treated the same.
Where you think the visa overstays should not be deported for being here illegally, I agree completely. They need to go home, but first we find out why they overstayed.
I think the illegal aliens who entered WITHOUT PERMISSION should be deported for no other reason than they entered without said permission. The way a person enters our country should be the immediate deciding factor of whether one should be deported without delay.
As was said earlier in the thread: it is just plain silly to say that Illegal Entry is a crime but Illegal Presence isn't. If one enters this country without permission (regardless of age) that person is a criminal for entering and staying.
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Old 06-06-2011, 08:45 AM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,479,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Stepping over the border is actually not much of a crime in itself. In many parts of the border, it's so open that you could inadvertanly come over not knowing there was a border there.

Working illegally in this country whether you are taking a job where you are paid in cash under the table or whether you had to purchase a stolen social security number is criminal.
I am not aware that working for cash is a crime.

Using a false SS # may be. But the aggravated ID theft was thrown out by the USSC.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:04 AM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,479,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulani View Post
I totally understand where you are coming from with this. Illegal entry is not the same as illegal presence.
However, those who DID enter illegally ARE criminals who are present illegally.
Those who entered on a visa and overstayed (or in your example, had one expire on them) are not HERE illegally because they had permission to be here. That is the difference between the two groups and they are both being treated the same.
Actually the general procedure in the US government is not to charge illegal aliens with illegal entry criminal conduct. That is because it is not worth the trouble. Note that after 10 years it is no longer chargable and those younger than 16 probably were never chargable.

Note that virtually any wilful violation of the tax code can also be charged and pursued criminally. So in your mind anyone who understates their tips is a criminal? Or if you use a tax shelter later ruled out you should be so designated?

Quote:
Where you think the visa overstays should not be deported for being here illegally, I agree completely. They need to go home, but first we find out why they overstayed.
I think the illegal aliens who entered WITHOUT PERMISSION should be deported for no other reason than they entered without said permission. The way a person enters our country should be the immediate deciding factor of whether one should be deported without delay.
As was said earlier in the thread: it is just plain silly to say that Illegal Entry is a crime but Illegal Presence isn't. If one enters this country without permission (regardless of age) that person is a criminal for entering and staying.
I never suggested those who overstay a visa should not be deported. Ship them home if there is not a good story that compels some other outcome.

As far as I am concerned any of the illegals can be swiftly deported. My point is that it is simply impractical at the 10 million level. We have neither the resources nor the will to do it.

The way in which one enters the country is generally not known to the feds. And it is not obvious to the degree that is beyond a reasonable doubt. So unless caught in the act it is very difficult to demonstrate.

Again criminal conduct is what the feds chose to treat as such. In general they virtually never treat illegal entry as criminal.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:59 AM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,096,522 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Actually the general procedure in the US government is not to charge illegal aliens with illegal entry criminal conduct. That is because it is not worth the trouble. Note that after 10 years it is no longer chargable and those younger than 16 probably were never chargable.

Note that virtually any wilful violation of the tax code can also be charged and pursued criminally. So in your mind anyone who understates their tips is a criminal? Or if you use a tax shelter later ruled out you should be so designated?



I never suggested those who overstay a visa should not be deported. Ship them home if there is not a good story that compels some other outcome.

As far as I am concerned any of the illegals can be swiftly deported. My point is that it is simply impractical at the 10 million level. We have neither the resources nor the will to do it.

The way in which one enters the country is generally not known to the feds. And it is not obvious to the degree that is beyond a reasonable doubt. So unless caught in the act it is very difficult to demonstrate.

Again criminal conduct is what the feds chose to treat as such. In general they virtually never treat illegal entry as criminal.
If you overstay your visa you should be sent back. Your visa was intended to be here a certain amount of time not forever.

Overstays are criminals who broken immigration law.

An overstayed visa is not a green card.
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:19 PM
 
Location: central Oregon
1,856 posts, read 2,025,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Actually the general procedure in the US government is not to charge illegal aliens with illegal entry criminal conduct. That is because it is not worth the trouble. Note that after 10 years it is no longer chargable and those younger than 16 probably were never chargable.

Note that virtually any wilful violation of the tax code can also be charged and pursued criminally. So in your mind anyone who understates their tips is a criminal? Or if you use a tax shelter later ruled out you should be so designated?



I never suggested those who overstay a visa should not be deported. Ship them home if there is not a good story that compels some other outcome.

As far as I am concerned any of the illegals can be swiftly deported. My point is that it is simply impractical at the 10 million level. We have neither the resources nor the will to do it.

The way in which one enters the country is generally not known to the feds. And it is not obvious to the degree that is beyond a reasonable doubt. So unless caught in the act it is very difficult to demonstrate.

Again criminal conduct is what the feds chose to treat as such. In general they virtually never treat illegal entry as criminal.
Sorry, should have been clearer: I was agreeing that those who overstay their visa should be deported. However, we can't treat those who enter our country illegally in the same manner.
I think the feds could easily figure out who entered our country legally or illegally. Those who came on any type of visa would still have this as proof - even if expired. An illegal would not have documents to prove his rightful entry. It's not rocket science here.
If they got here one at a time, then they can leave here one at a time.
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