Is illegal immigration a crime? Are Illegal immigrants criminals? (certificate, driver's license, born)

[FormerCaliforniaGirl]

I prefer to refer to them as "parasites".

[Ciaerin]

Them coming into our country illegallly is not akin to speeding. They knowingly hiked their happy behinds here, then they try to get work here (which is illegal since they are not citizens or on a work visa) then they fail to pay taxes, then they drive illegally. If I speed and get a ticket once, I get a fine, twice a harsher fine, 3 times and I will probably lose my license. They break 3 laws j ust trying to get settled, how are they not criminals?

[Kellem]

Originally Posted by FormerCaliforniaGirl

I prefer to refer to them as "parasites".

I do would think of them as a more symbiotic relationship, since they should benefit someone otherwise they would not be allowed. But the word criminal is what I was trying to clarify.

[Benicar]

Originally Posted by Kellem

I keep hearing the term criminal being equated to the term illegal alien, but the term criminal is reserved for people who has broken a criminal law.

Now, illegal immigration is a Civil matter, which means it's ruled by Civil Law not Criminal Law. Immigration cases are heard in front of an administrative law judge for the BCIS not a criminal judge.

So, yes, an illegal alien has broken a law, but a civil one, not a criminal law therefore is not a criminal per se.

Now, I asked on the spot one of my friends who is law school student (via text) and she told me that one could argue that the illegal alien is actually a victim of the U.S. system because by categorizing illegal immigration as civil matter the individual is actually denied the protections of process that are exclusively given to people in the criminal justice system.

Now if you do not agree with my definition of the word criminal to be limited to "Criminal Law" then you trivialize the word and anyone, including people who got a parking ticket, or at any time got an speeding ticket would be a criminal.


The only source that I could find regarding illegal immigration could be considered criminal is U.S. Code, Title 8, Section 1325 Improper entry by an alien. But it's scope is limited and if it applies, it only applies to:
"Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, ..."

United States Code - TITLE 8 - ALIENS AND NATIONALITY - CHAPTER 12 - IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY - SUBCHAPTER II - IMMIGRATION - PART VIII - GENERAL PENALTY PROVISIONS - section 1325

But then people who entered the U.S. legally and then overstayed ( about 45% of the illegal aliens as of 2006 according to NPR) (Nearly Half of Illegal Immigrants Overstay Visas : NPR) would not be a criminal.

Also, now thanks to the decision by the Supreme Court stating that (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/us/05immig.html) "federal identity-theft law may not be used against many illegal workers who used false Social Security numbers to get jobs." even further reduces the amount of illegal aliens who are accurately called criminals.

I have no formal law training, but I would definitely like to see the lawyers that are members of this forum or any other person who knows the law leave a more informed opinion on the matter.

Please if I have missed it at any point for the purpose of this post, define illegal immigrant as equivalent to illegal alien for any of my writing, I tried to change as much as I saw needed. Thanks Bostonian123

-Kellem

Let’s examine the following:

"Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers. . . .

By your own admission, the above violations constitute a “criminal” offense. Given that the majority (55%) illegally entered this country, they are in fact criminals.

Furthermore, many, if not most, visa overstays are premeditated. I can’t count the number of times I have read accounts of illegal aliens who brought ALL of their valued possessions with them when they entered this country; or who entered on a tourist visa for the sole purpose of remaining indefinitely in this country. Thus, we can accurately consider the vast majority of illegal aliens as criminals.

Let’s not forget the ‘additional’ crimes of identity theft (at the state level it is still a crime), document fraud, welfare fraud, marriage fraud, tax evasion, murder, rape, robbery, drug/human trafficking, etc.

I’m sorry, they are ALL criminals, and should be dealt with accordingly.

[sw0rdfish]

This is important to define Identity theft.
A unanimous Supreme Court said Monday that undocumented workers who use phony IDs can't be considered identity thieves without proof they knew they were stealing real people's Social Security and other numbers.

[1AngryTaxPayer]

Originally Posted by sw0rdfish

This is important to define Identity theft.
A unanimous Supreme Court said Monday that undocumented workers who use phony IDs can't be considered identity thieves without proof they knew they were stealing real people's Social Security and other numbers.

It's two part, they can still be busted for using a fake document.

[sw0rdfish]

Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer

It's two part, they can still be busted for using a fake document.

Which doesn't carries a two-year mandatory prison term or immediate deportation.

[Kellem]

Originally Posted by Benicar

Let’s examine the following:

"Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers. . . .

By your own admission, the above violations constitute a “criminal” offense. Given that the majority (55%) illegally entered this country, they are in fact criminals.

I think this is a good point, yet I think that a 55% majority does not allow you to call illegal immigrants, more than a majority vote for a democrat president and congress, allow you to generalize all U.S. citizens as democrats.

Originally Posted by Benicar

Furthermore, many, if not most, visa overstays are premeditated. I can’t count the number of times I have read accounts of illegal aliens who brought ALL of their valued possessions with them when they entered this country; or who entered on a tourist visa for the sole purpose of remaining indefinitely in this country. Thus, we can accurately consider the vast majority of illegal aliens as criminals.

I fail to understand how premeditation to overstay their visa changes this, specially towards the children and underaged family of the people who come here, but I see your point, and I'll try to look into this and see how both sides can be supported.

Originally Posted by Benicar

Let’s not forget the ‘additional’ crimes of identity theft (at the state level it is still a crime), document fraud, welfare fraud, marriage fraud, tax evasion, murder, rape, robbery, drug/human trafficking, etc.

I’m sorry, they are ALL criminals, and should be dealt with accordingly.

Uhmm... I do have to agree with you in the document fraud, from my experience this do is an ongoing event. Welfare fraud, I would like to see some data. Marriage fraud, tax evasion, have heard of but not from personal experience. Murder, rape, robbery, drug/human trafficking, these are some major crimes and I do not think that a significant number, once normalized by the number of illegal aliens perpetrate these crimes.

Document fraud, I wonder how is it going in New Mexico and other states where illegal aliens can get a drivers license, I'm going to look for some data to see how they compare with other states.

So illegal aliens are not criminals per se by being illegaly here, but from what they have to do in order to get work. (Document fraud - I.D. theft at the state level) So since according to threads here, an illegal alien who is able to obtain welfare, illegal aliens who come and get documents to work are criminals, while those who go on government welfare and do not get I.D.'s and don't work are not criminals.

I'll keep looking into this stuff, thanks Benicar.

[Kellem]

Originally Posted by sw0rdfish

Which doesn't carries a two-year mandatory prison term or immediate deportation.

And it's similar to the teenager who uses a fake/someone else's I.D. to gain access to a 21+ venue or to buy alcohol.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by Kellem

I do would think of them as a more symbiotic relationship, since they should benefit someone otherwise they would not be allowed. But the word criminal is what I was trying to clarify.

No symbiotic relationship in my life----------direct or otherwise.

The USA does not need illegal aliens to survive/prosper as a nation.