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Old 05-06-2009, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I think this is a good point, yet I think that a 55% majority does not allow you to call illegal immigrants, more than a majority vote for a democrat president and congress, allow you to generalize all U.S. citizens as democrats.
Now you’re comparing apples to oranges. The percentage of citizens who choose to vote for a candidate simply indicates their personal preference -- they can be of any political affiliation. However, if 55% of a ‘specific’ group by ‘definition’ are criminals, and the majority of the remaining 45% can also be considered criminals, it is fair to consider them collectively as criminals.

If we were discussing a group of teenagers living in a particular section of a city, and 55% were ‘known’ illicit drug users, and the remaining 45% possessed drug paraphernalia, we can surmise that the vast majority are in fact drug users. Could we not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem
I fail to understand how premeditation to overstay their visa changes this, specially towards the children and underaged family of the people who come here, but I see your point, and I'll try to look into this and see how both sides can be supported.
From your source:

(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, ..."

Premeditation is relevant because it indicates conscious thought, preparation, and willful intent. If foreigners enter this country on visas, and obtained said visas for the express purpose of remaining in this country subsequent to the visa expiration, they have obtained entry into this country under willfully false or misleading representation. Thus, they are criminals. Of course, children brought into this country by their parents are not culpable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem
Uhmm... I do have to agree with you in the document fraud, from my experience this do is an ongoing event. Welfare fraud, I would like to see some data. Marriage fraud, tax evasion, have heard of but not from personal experience. Murder, rape, robbery, drug/human trafficking, these are some major crimes and I do not think that a significant number, once normalized by the number of illegal aliens perpetrate these crimes.
I’m not sure if your research will yield much information regarding illegal aliens and welfare fraud. However, it is a common practice for illegal alien women to give birth in this country to qualify for welfare for their U.S.-born children, and to claim there is no husband/father in the home. The man works (off the books) and the woman collects welfare. That constitutes fraud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem
Document fraud, I wonder how is it going in New Mexico and other states where illegal aliens can get a drivers license, I'm going to look for some data to see how they compare with other states.
Illegal aliens obtain fraudulent documents for everything from driver's licenses to birth certificates. There is a huge (and lucrative) document fraud enterprise in this country servicing the illegal alien community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem
So illegal aliens are not criminals per se by being illegaly here, but from what they have to do in order to get work. (Document fraud - I.D. theft at the state level) So since according to threads here, an illegal alien who is able to obtain welfare, illegal aliens who come and get documents to work are criminals, while those who go on government welfare and do not get I.D.'s and don't work are not criminals.

I'll keep looking into this stuff, thanks Benicar.
Sorry, but they are in fact criminals, per your referenced immigration code.
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Old 05-06-2009, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Reeds Spring, MO
974 posts, read 1,351,963 times
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Quote:
So illegal aliens are not criminals per se by being illegaly here, but from what they have to do in order to get work. (Document fraud - I.D. theft at the state level) So since according to threads here, an illegal alien who is able to obtain welfare, illegal aliens who come and get documents to work are criminals, while those who go on government welfare and do not get I.D.'s and don't work are not criminals.
This is where you are wrong. Them being here alone is illegal and makes them criminals. I do not want them here period. I do not care if they are paying a million dollars in taxes, if they are here illegally then get out period. I do not care if they are on welfare, dying, have children, etc.... I want them all gone.
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Old 05-06-2009, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaerin View Post
This is where you are wrong. Them being here alone is illegal and makes them criminals. I do not want them here period. I do not care if they are paying a million dollars in taxes, if they are here illegally then get out period. I do not care if they are on welfare, dying, have children, etc.... I want them all gone.
As you stated----------short, sweet and to the point.
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Old 05-06-2009, 05:01 PM
 
4,272 posts, read 7,887,141 times
Reputation: 1552
But he says that you are legally only a criminal if you break criminal law. The illegals are only criminals if they deported once and come back, or commit another crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaerin View Post
This is where you are wrong. Them being here alone is illegal and makes them criminals. I do not want them here period. I do not care if they are paying a million dollars in taxes, if they are here illegally then get out period. I do not care if they are on welfare, dying, have children, etc.... I want them all gone.
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Old 05-06-2009, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Reeds Spring, MO
974 posts, read 1,351,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicman View Post
But he says that you are legally only a criminal if you break criminal law. The illegals are only criminals if they deported once and come back, or commit another crime.
In my mind, they are criminals... period. I do not care what our dirty politicians do to spin this in a favorable light. They are criminals.
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Old 05-06-2009, 05:13 PM
 
4,272 posts, read 7,887,141 times
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In that case just make sure it is understood that you feel that they are like criminals, even if the letter of the law says most are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaerin View Post
In my mind, they are criminals... period. I do not care what our dirty politicians do to spin this in a favorable light. They are criminals.
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Old 05-06-2009, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,174,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Now you’re comparing apples to oranges. The percentage of citizens who choose to vote for a candidate simply indicates their personal preference -- they can be of any political affiliation. However, if 55% of a ‘specific’ group by ‘definition’ are criminals, and the majority of the remaining 45% can also be considered criminals, it is fair to consider them collectively as criminals.

If we were discussing a group of teenagers living in a particular section of a city, and 55% were ‘known’ illicit drug users, and the remaining 45% possessed drug paraphernalia, we can surmise that the vast majority are in fact drug users. Could we not?



From your source:

(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, ..."

Premeditation is relevant because it indicates conscious thought, preparation, and willful intent. If foreigners enter this country on visas, and obtained said visas for the express purpose of remaining in this country subsequent to the visa expiration, they have obtained entry into this country under willfully false or misleading representation. Thus, they are criminals. Of course, children brought into this country by their parents are not culpable.



I’m not sure if your research will yield much information regarding illegal aliens and welfare fraud. However, it is a common practice for illegal alien women to give birth in this country to qualify for welfare for their U.S.-born children, and to claim there is no husband/father in the home. The man works (off the books) and the woman collects welfare. That constitutes fraud.



Illegal aliens obtain fraudulent documents for everything from driver's licenses to birth certificates. There is a huge (and lucrative) document fraud enterprise in this country servicing the illegal alien community.



Sorry, but they are in fact criminals, per your referenced immigration code.
I like your posts Benicar, they usually come with a lot of useful information and well though out answers.


I'm still not convinced on the first part of you post about the generalization of illegal aliens to criminals. But I like link between premeditation and "wilfully false or misleading information".

Now the question that I have is regarding Due Criminal Process. If illegal aliens are criminals, and as explained in this thread, have committed a Criminal Offence, do they get all the protections of the process given to people during criminal trials? Like: a jury, evidence rules, burden of proof, an attorney if they cannot afford one, and double jeopardy?

And if they are not tried on a criminal trial, as I think is the case, why are all of these criminal cases being tried on a civil courtroom?
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Old 05-06-2009, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I like your posts Benicar, they usually come with a lot of useful information and well though out answers.


I'm still not convinced on the first part of you post about the generalization of illegal aliens to criminals. But I like link between premeditation and "wilfully false or misleading information".

Now the question that I have is regarding Due Criminal Process. If illegal aliens are criminals, and as explained in this thread, have committed a Criminal Offence, do they get all the protections of the process given to people during criminal trials? Like: a jury, evidence rules, burden of proof, an attorney if they cannot afford one, and double jeopardy?

And if they are not tried on a criminal trial, as I think is the case, why are all of these criminal cases being tried on a civil courtroom?
Thanks. I’m not a lawyer, so any response from me on this subject would be based solely on conjecture. However, I do know that illegal aliens receive due process for felony offenses, as well as a tax-funded legal defense.
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Old 05-07-2009, 06:22 AM
 
Location: The Wine Country, CA
807 posts, read 1,116,947 times
Reputation: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaerin View Post
This is where you are wrong. Them being here alone is illegal and makes them criminals. I do not want them here period. I do not care if they are paying a million dollars in taxes, if they are here illegally then get out period. I do not care if they are on welfare, dying, have children, etc.... I want them all gone.

I Couldn't agree more.. Awesome Post!!!
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Old 05-07-2009, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Reeds Spring, MO
974 posts, read 1,351,963 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I like your posts Benicar, they usually come with a lot of useful information and well though out answers.


I'm still not convinced on the first part of you post about the generalization of illegal aliens to criminals. But I like link between premeditation and "wilfully false or misleading information".

Now the question that I have is regarding Due Criminal Process. If illegal aliens are criminals, and as explained in this thread, have committed a Criminal Offence, do they get all the protections of the process given to people during criminal trials? Like: a jury, evidence rules, burden of proof, an attorney if they cannot afford one, and double jeopardy?

And if they are not tried on a criminal trial, as I think is the case, why are all of these criminal cases being tried on a civil courtroom?

My thoughts on this are like this, they are here illegallly and are not citizens of the United States of America. Nor are they Legal residents of this US. Therefore due process and legal rights are thrown out the window. How can they have rights, when they are not from here.
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