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Old 06-03-2011, 11:48 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makossa View Post
Kellam, I think we're just splitting hairs here. We can spin it first offense is civil, second offense criminal and so on, yadda, yadda, yadda. What about just plain common sense and forget about the P.C.

Wouldn't you agree that generally when someone does something illegal that it's a criminal act? There's way too much effort used in sugar coating and justifying illegal immigration. It leads me to believe that those in the pro-illegal camp actually do know that illegal immigration is wrong, otherwise, why so much time and effort on things like this.

Yes, IMO, illegal immigrants are criminals.
Another great post and I agree.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:05 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,034,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makossa View Post
Kellam, I think we're just splitting hairs here. We can spin it first offense is civil, second offense criminal and so on, yadda, yadda, yadda. What about just plain common sense and forget about the P.C.

Wouldn't you agree that generally when someone does something illegal that it's a criminal act? There's way too much effort used in sugar coating and justifying illegal immigration. It leads me to believe that those in the pro-illegal camp actually do know that illegal immigration is wrong, otherwise, why so much time and effort on things like this.

Yes, IMO, illegal immigrants are criminals.
100% correct.

We can argue, spin it, lie about it, point fingers etc. but the bottom line is that the people doing this act are deportable! That's really the bottom line.
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Old 06-03-2011, 02:07 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by makossa View Post
Kellam, I think we're just splitting hairs here. We can spin it first offense is civil, second offense criminal and so on, yadda, yadda, yadda. What about just plain common sense and forget about the P.C.

Wouldn't you agree that generally when someone does something illegal that it's a criminal act? There's way too much effort used in sugar coating and justifying illegal immigration. It leads me to believe that those in the pro-illegal camp actually do know that illegal immigration is wrong, otherwise, why so much time and effort on things like this.

Yes, IMO, illegal immigrants are criminals.
Sometimes. But mostly not.

Violation of law that are not criminal are very common. Speeding for instance. Or taking an unallowable tax deduction...even if not deliberate.

And there are vast sets of safety and operating requirements on businesses where the violation of the law is civil.

Try the zoning and building codes. A car on the front lawn is pretty much a civil violation in many jurisdictions...though it may turn criminal over failure to correct.

So it is a real distinction which we all care about. I certainly don't want to see people go to jail for building their shed to close to the property line.

The issue is in fact silly and is raised by the antis only to paint the illegals into the same set as robbers and murderers.

It is a civil violation generally and merits deportation. But they are not criminals and in fact generally are very law abiding. That fact however is not acceptable to many of the antis so they try to conceal it beneath a veil of criminality.
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
2,868 posts, read 4,040,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Sometimes. But mostly not.

Violation of law that are not criminal are very common. Speeding for instance. Or taking an unallowable tax deduction...even if not deliberate.

And there are vast sets of safety and operating requirements on businesses where the violation of the law is civil.

Try the zoning and building codes. A car on the front lawn is pretty much a civil violation in many jurisdictions...though it may turn criminal over failure to correct.

So it is a real distinction which we all care about. I certainly don't want to see people go to jail for building their shed to close to the property line.

The issue is in fact silly and is raised by the antis only to paint the illegals into the same set as robbers and murderers.

It is a civil violation generally and merits deportation. But they are not criminals and in fact generally are very law abiding. That fact however is not acceptable to many of the antis so they try to conceal it beneath a veil of criminality.
Olecapt, I think your post is a prime example of the spin and splitting of hairs we were talking about. It's just another default tactic to soften the offense. Nobody is saying they're in the same class as robbers or murderers, that's silly and ridiculous and you know it.

You say, "the antis try to conceal it beneath a veil of criminality." What veil? It's a criminal act, which makes you a criminal. Whats so hard to understand?

You site a number of examples of breaking the law that do not make you a criminal, which I, of course would have to agree with. But, then you close by saying "I certainly don't want to see people go to jail for building their shed to close to the property line." Please, tell me how all that was not spin? It is, in fact, your veil to confuse and high jack the issue. I never said anything about jail in my post. In fact I agree with you, deportation. Why would I want to see more of our tax dollars wasted on jailing these people, unless of course, they committed a jail-able offense.

Don't you understand by now, that 99% of us in the anti-illegal camp just want them to enter the right way like everyone else. How hard is that to understand? Yet, your camp continues to avoid any common sense and will try and justify illegal immigration in any way.

I'll say it one more time for you, " Yes, IMO, illegal immigrants are criminals."
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:52 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Yes, many do commit crimes after entering illegally but it is all the associated costs of illegal immigration that is breaking the backs of Americans.
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
2,868 posts, read 4,040,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Yes, many do commit crimes after entering illegally but it is all the associated costs of illegal immigration that is breaking the backs of Americans.
- Exactly. How anybody can argue that illegal immigration has not been a huge burden on America is beyond me.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:22 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,186 times
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[quote=1751texan;19426870]
Quote:
The classification of US immigration law is Adimistrative.
Often referred to as such, however the correct term is US Code.

Quote:
Although Adminstrative law is federal most do not carry the punitive weight of other "Federal" offenses.
That would depend on what the offenses are. It need not, but it can.

(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

Civil offenses, to the best of my knowledge, never (or rarely ever) result in imprisonment.

Quote:
Most people incorrectly place extreme weight on the breaking of US immigration law, but in fact the federal government has the right given by the Constituion and the Congress to over-see immigration and its penalties.
Most people also know that the Federal Government is comprised of three branches: legislative, judicial, and executive.

Congress IS the legislative branch of the Federal Government that writes our laws concerning immigration. The executive branch implements the laws written by Congress and the judicial branch interprets those laws.

Quote:
breaking US immigration rules have misdermeanors as first offense penalties.
They are laws not rules. And, the violation of those laws can include imprisonment under first time offenses.

BTW: Nice to see your posts, I thought by chance you'd been deported
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
2,868 posts, read 4,040,896 times
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[quote=AlabamaStorm;19435877]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Often referred to as such, however the correct term is US Code.

That would depend on what the offenses are. It need not, but it can.

(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

Civil offenses, to the best of my knowledge, never (or rarely ever) result in imprisonment.

Most people also know that the Federal Government is comprised of three branches: legislative, judicial, and executive.

Congress IS the legislative branch of the Federal Government that writes our laws concerning immigration. The executive branch implements the laws written by Congress and the judicial branch interprets those laws.

They are laws not rules. And, the violation of those laws can include imprisonment under first time offenses.

BTW: Nice to see your posts, I thought by chance you'd been deported
Great post, I really can't wait to see what kind of spin olecapt and 1751texan will try on this one.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,010,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
100% correct.

We can argue, spin it, lie about it, point fingers etc. but the bottom line is that the people doing this act are deportable! That's really the bottom line.
No necessarily, a more correct term is that they are "removable", and that is not always the case...
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:46 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
[quote=makossa;19435957]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post

Great post, I really can't wait to see what kind of spin olecapt and 1751texan will try on this one.
And some others in here.
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