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Old 05-17-2009, 09:19 PM
 
Location: SXSW
640 posts, read 1,514,449 times
Reputation: 607

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
If Hispanics choose to align themselves with foreign invaders to avoid being considered self-loathing, then they deserve whatever treatment they receive.
You know, comments like this are not going to help this cause any. Latinos against illegal immigration are very useful in proving a point about it not being about racism. This was beyond harsh and not the type of response I was expecting. I'm directly responsible for others' prejudice against me? Interesting. I guess it's easy to be a harda** when people of your skin tone are not the ones being vilified for a change.
The reality is that Hispanics against illegal immigration ARE outnumbered.

Last edited by simpleharmonicmotion; 05-17-2009 at 09:30 PM..
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Old 05-17-2009, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Where laws can be ignored due to political correctness
1,111 posts, read 1,582,681 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueseas123 View Post
The reality is that Hispanics against illegal immigration ARE outnumbered.
Sadly, such a thing is a fact of reality.

Generalizing like that isn't going to help the anti-illegal cause, Benicar.

One thing that we need to do is to emphasize that illegal aliens are not just Hispanic but that there are also illegal Irish, Russians, Koreans, Filipinos, Indians, Chinese, Polish, Eastern Europeans, Haitians, etc. to counter any claims that being anti-illegal is equivalent to being anti-Hispanic/anti-Mexican.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:36 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueseas123 View Post
You know, comments like this are not going to help this cause any. Latinos against illegal immigration are very useful in proving a point about it not being about racism. This was beyond harsh and not the type of response I was expecting. I'm directly responsible for others' prejudice against me? Interesting. I guess it's easy to be a harda** when people of your skin tone are not the ones being vilified for a change.
The reality is that Hispanics against illegal immigration ARE outnumbered.
Wait just a minute. YOU are the one who offered a litany of reasons why the MAJORITY of Hispanics will not oppose illegal immigration -- first and foremost, due to shared ethnicity. At no time have I endorsed prejudice or any form of mistreatment of Hispanics. If anything, I have ‘tried’ to be supportive of Hispanic-Americans, and have stated repeatedly they shouldn’t be treated differently due to illegal immigration. I was simply responding to the information you provided; not to YOU personally. To even mention my “skin tone” as a retort, speaks volumes, and is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

It’s unfortunate that Hispanics opposed to illegal immigration are the minority, and must suffer due to the majority who will not admonish Hispanic illegal aliens under ANY circumstance. It’s unfortunate, but it’s a reality with repercussions for ALL Hispanics in this country.

You offered an Hispanic perspective, and it is appreciated. I responded to said perspective. If you are the getaway driver for a bank robber, you are as culpable as the perpetrator. You can’t be an accomplice and expect to be treated as an innocent bystander.

I stand by my comments. If that makes me a harda**, so be it.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:40 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
Sadly, such a thing is a fact of reality.

Generalizing like that isn't going to help the anti-illegal cause, Benicar.

One thing that we need to do is to emphasize that illegal aliens are not just Hispanic but that there are also illegal Irish, Russians, Koreans, Filipinos, Indians, Chinese, Polish, Eastern Europeans, Haitians, etc. to counter any claims that being anti-illegal is equivalent to being anti-Hispanic/anti-Mexican.
How have I generalized? I responded to blueseas' post in which he/she explained the behavior of the MAJORITY of Hispanics. I did not ascribe said behavior to Hispanics; he/she did.
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:53 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
How have I generalized? I responded to blueseas' post in which he/she explained the behavior of the MAJORITY of Hispanics. I did not ascribe said behavior to Hispanics; he/she did.
Once again, I repeat..."CULTURE". It's a matter of culture. The fact is that "Mexicans"...(as a people...a population...a group) 'see themselves' far differently than "Americans" see THEMSELVES. The USA is a modern, 'artificial' society....and we simply don't have that sense of 'tribe' that most third-world cultures have. Americans, by-and-large, have no sense of being any sort of an 'American Ethnic group'. It just doesn't exist. Americans feel connected for OTHER reasons, not ethnicity.

Mexicans have a deep sense of being "us"....an identifiable group....and this becomes even MORE pronounced here in the US....it's "us" as opposed to "them" (all NON-Mexicans). Many Mexican-Americans are caught in an uncomfortable 'twilight zone' between these two realities.

To go from a THIRD WORLD 'tribal', ethnic culture to a FIRST WORLD 'voluntary' society CAN be done...but it takes years of exposure and assimilation...usually at LEAST a generation.

This is unlikely to happen in the face of rapid, massive immigration, enabling the newcomers to continually reinforce that sense of "us". When an overwhelming number of your group is here illegally, that makes that "line in the sand" all the more compelling....the sense that "We are DIFFERENT..we are 'us', and they are 'them'...and 'they' don't LIKE us". There's some truth to that....when "you" are, by your own admission, "different"....and when you include in your group huge numbers of those who violate the norms of the majority of "others"...then you probably WILL be greeted with suspicion and mistrust, and somewhat less than an 'open-arm welcome'. That's simply a fact of human nature.

I'll forego my normal pitch for 'assimilation' here, and my usual comment on the obvious downside of multiculturalism and 'celebrating our differences'. It speaks for itself, for anyone who's listening...meanwhile, there's no way to reach those who aren't.
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,887,954 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueseas123 View Post
You know, comments like this are not going to help this cause any. Latinos against illegal immigration are very useful in proving a point about it not being about racism. This was beyond harsh and not the type of response I was expecting. I'm directly responsible for others' prejudice against me? Interesting. I guess it's easy to be a harda** when people of your skin tone are not the ones being vilified for a change.
The reality is that Hispanics against illegal immigration ARE outnumbered.
So by your own post you admit that themajority of hispanics are in favor of and or endorse illegal immigration. In which case the cold shoulder is in fact deserved. Especially in light of the fact that hispanics account for the vast majority of illegals.
Thank you for your honesty.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Once again, I repeat..."CULTURE". It's a matter of culture. The fact is that "Mexicans"...(as a people...a population...a group) 'see themselves' far differently than "Americans" see THEMSELVES. The USA is a modern, 'artificial' society....and we simply don't have that sense of 'tribe' that most third-world cultures have. Americans, by-and-large, have no sense of being any sort of an 'American Ethnic group'. It just doesn't exist. Americans feel connected for OTHER reasons, not ethnicity.

Mexicans have a deep sense of being "us"....an identifiable group....and this becomes even MORE pronounced here in the US....it's "us" as opposed to "them" (all NON-Mexicans). Many Mexican-Americans are caught in an uncomfortable 'twilight zone' between these two realities.

To go from a THIRD WORLD 'tribal', ethnic culture to a FIRST WORLD 'voluntary' society CAN be done...but it takes years of exposure and assimilation...usually at LEAST a generation.

This is unlikely to happen in the face of rapid, massive immigration, enabling the newcomers to continually reinforce that sense of "us". When an overwhelming number of your group is here illegally, that makes that "line in the sand" all the more compelling....the sense that "We are DIFFERENT..we are 'us', and they are 'them'...and 'they' don't LIKE us". There's some truth to that....when "you" are, by your own admission, "different"....and when you include in your group huge numbers of those who violate the norms of the majority of "others"...then you probably WILL be greeted with suspicion and mistrust, and somewhat less than an 'open-arm welcome'. That's simply a fact of human nature.

I'll forego my normal pitch for 'assimilation' here, and my usual comment on the obvious downside of multiculturalism and 'celebrating our differences'. It speaks for itself, for anyone who's listening...meanwhile, there's no way to reach those who aren't.
Flip side:

Overseas Americans of any race/ethnicity are indeed lumped together----------much like White and Black South Africans living in the UK sticking together due to similar real world life experiences.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueseas123 View Post
You know, comments like this are not going to help this cause any. Latinos against illegal immigration are very useful in proving a point about it not being about racism. This was beyond harsh and not the type of response I was expecting. I'm directly responsible for others' prejudice against me? Interesting. I guess it's easy to be a harda** when people of your skin tone are not the ones being vilified for a change.
The reality is that Hispanics against illegal immigration ARE outnumbered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
Sadly, such a thing is a fact of reality.

Generalizing like that isn't going to help the anti-illegal cause, Benicar.

One thing that we need to do is to emphasize that illegal aliens are not just Hispanic but that there are also illegal Irish, Russians, Koreans, Filipinos, Indians, Chinese, Polish, Eastern Europeans, Haitians, etc. to counter any claims that being anti-illegal is equivalent to being anti-Hispanic/anti-Mexican.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Wait just a minute. YOU are the one who offered a litany of reasons why the MAJORITY of Hispanics will not oppose illegal immigration -- first and foremost, due to shared ethnicity. At no time have I endorsed prejudice or any form of mistreatment of Hispanics. If anything, I have ‘tried’ to be supportive of Hispanic-Americans, and have stated repeatedly they shouldn’t be treated differently due to illegal immigration. I was simply responding to the information you provided; not to YOU personally. To even mention my “skin tone” as a retort, speaks volumes, and is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

It’s unfortunate that Hispanics opposed to illegal immigration are the minority, and must suffer due to the majority who will not admonish Hispanic illegal aliens under ANY circumstance. It’s unfortunate, but it’s a reality with repercussions for ALL Hispanics in this country.

You offered an Hispanic perspective, and it is appreciated. I responded to said perspective. If you are the getaway driver for a bank robber, you are as culpable as the perpetrator. You can’t be an accomplice and expect to be treated as an innocent bystander.

I stand by my comments. If that makes me a harda**, so be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
So by your own post you admit that themajority of hispanics are in favor of and or endorse illegal immigration. In which case the cold shoulder is in fact deserved. Especially in light of the fact that hispanics account for the vast majority of illegals.
Thank you for your honesty.
Group ((((hug)))) here guys: despite some differences here------------we are all on the same (anti illegal immigration) page
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Old 05-18-2009, 11:06 AM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,655 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
If Hispanics choose to align themselves with foreign invaders to avoid being considered self-loathing, then they deserve whatever treatment they receive.
Just when I thought we were making progress on the subject - another generalization. Had you said "If 'certain' Hispanics..." the point would have been made without grouping the entire Hispanic population together and saying that all Hispanics deserve whatever treatment they receive because some choose to align themselves with the illegals.

Would you agree that the mainstream hip-hop culture tends to create a negative stereotype for the Black community in general, glamorizing violence through lyrics - in a sense, endorsing unacceptable/illegal behavior? Yet, since the majority of the the Black community doesn't stand up and speak out against it, we should also assume the entire Black community "deserves whatever treatment they receive"? I wouldn't buy into that logic. It would be nice to see more of the Black community speak out against it, but if they don't, they shouldn't be expected to just accept the negative backlash for the actions or beliefs of the people directly responsible for the negative stereotypes.

Does it matter how many Hispanics are against illegal immigration or how many stand up against it? Should that number be the determining factor in the treatment of the entire Hispanic community? No, it shouldn't. Those who give people a free pass in not making the distinction are only promoting the mob mentality and ensuring more innocent people feel the wrath.

People should vent their frustrations, but without doing it in a way that creates more anger towards the people who are not illegals or endorsing illegals. Nothing good will come from creating a lynch mob and increasing the collateral damage.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:36 PM
 
5,767 posts, read 10,029,341 times
Reputation: 3809
Quote:
repercussions for ALL Hispanics in this country.
Quote:
In which case the cold shoulder is in fact deserved.
I'm not sure I even understand what this is supposed to mean in real terms. If a Puerto Rican or a hispanic-looking Hopi native walks into a store, they're going to be given "the evil eye" by the shopkeeper because of illegal immigration from Mexico?
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