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Old 05-18-2009, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,895,723 times
Reputation: 6517

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
Most hispanics don't wear ID cards on their backs, so it wouldn't be possible to make a legal/illegal distinction just by appearance...
It would be if we got rid of all the illegals. To do this we need a few things from the hispanic community.
1. Stop harboring illegals
2. Report illegals
3. Stop facilitating illegals.
Is this really asking so much?
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Old 05-18-2009, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,075 posts, read 1,775,251 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Once again, I repeat..."CULTURE". It's a matter of culture. The fact is that "Mexicans"...(as a people...a population...a group) 'see themselves' far differently than "Americans" see THEMSELVES. The USA is a modern, 'artificial' society....and we simply don't have that sense of 'tribe' that most third-world cultures have. Americans, by-and-large, have no sense of being any sort of an 'American Ethnic group'. It just doesn't exist. Americans feel connected for OTHER reasons, not ethnicity.

Mexicans have a deep sense of being "us"....an identifiable group....and this becomes even MORE pronounced here in the US....it's "us" as opposed to "them" (all NON-Mexicans). Many Mexican-Americans are caught in an uncomfortable 'twilight zone' between these two realities.

To go from a THIRD WORLD 'tribal', ethnic culture to a FIRST WORLD 'voluntary' society CAN be done...but it takes years of exposure and assimilation...usually at LEAST a generation.

This is unlikely to happen in the face of rapid, massive immigration, enabling the newcomers to continually reinforce that sense of "us". When an overwhelming number of your group is here illegally, that makes that "line in the sand" all the more compelling....the sense that "We are DIFFERENT..we are 'us', and they are 'them'...and 'they' don't LIKE us". There's some truth to that....when "you" are, by your own admission, "different"....and when you include in your group huge numbers of those who violate the norms of the majority of "others"...then you probably WILL be greeted with suspicion and mistrust, and somewhat less than an 'open-arm welcome'. That's simply a fact of human nature.

I'll forego my normal pitch for 'assimilation' here, and my usual comment on the obvious downside of multiculturalism and 'celebrating our differences'. It speaks for itself, for anyone who's listening...meanwhile, there's no way to reach those who aren't.
I don't think Im going to buy the whole CULTURE thing. Mexican-American is a joke, something they chose to call themselves. Mexican is a nationality, not a race. Mexico didn't even become a country until 1820 or so. You can be one or the other, Mexican or American. Hyphenated Americans are just aliens that need an excuse, or some kind justification, to reject our Culture. The American "Culture" got us through WW2. We don't need to change the way we think now.

You got it right on one thing for sure though. There is a line in the sand. It starts at the Mexican border. If you are "them" and your "differences " make you special, then I have some advice for you. Go the hell home. We don't have the time or patience to deal with your "demands" anymore.

You think you can invade the USA by sneaking across the border? You think that makes you unique? We should support all your spawn? Give me a break ! Americans are just that "Americans", if you don't like it, LEAVE.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,823,428 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Just when I thought we were making progress on the subject - another generalization. Had you said "If 'certain' Hispanics..." the point would have been made without grouping the entire Hispanic population together and saying that all Hispanics deserve whatever treatment they receive because some choose to align themselves with the illegals.

Would you agree that the mainstream hip-hop culture tends to create a negative stereotype for the Black community in general, glamorizing violence through lyrics - in a sense, endorsing unacceptable/illegal behavior? Yet, since the majority of the the Black community doesn't stand up and speak out against it, we should also assume the entire Black community "deserves whatever treatment they receive"? I wouldn't buy into that logic. It would be nice to see more of the Black community speak out against it, but if they don't, they shouldn't be expected to just accept the negative backlash for the actions or beliefs of the people directly responsible for the negative stereotypes.

Does it matter how many Hispanics are against illegal immigration or how many stand up against it? Should that number be the determining factor in the treatment of the entire Hispanic community? No, it shouldn't. Those who give people a free pass in not making the distinction are only promoting the mob mentality and ensuring more innocent people feel the wrath.

People should vent their frustrations, but without doing it in a way that creates more anger towards the people who are not illegals or endorsing illegals. Nothing good will come from creating a lynch mob and increasing the collateral damage.
Good grief! I said ďHispanicsĒ -- I didnít say ALL Hispanics. Perhaps I should have been more specific and stated, the majority of Hispanics. . . . (according to Blueseas)

The fact that both you and Blueseas felt compelled to mention ďBlackĒ and ďskin toneĒ indicates, at least to me, that you perceive this as being a racial/ethnic issue, rather than legal vs. illegal. Both of your comments could be interpreted as race-baiting. Sorry, I wonít nibble.

As I mentioned on another thread; we are not discussing U.S. citizens supporting the behavior of other U.S. citizens. We are discussing foreigners who are living in this country illegally. You can NOT compare Black American rappers to Hispanic foreign invaders. The Black rappers are U.S. citizens, and have every right to be here -- even if they do perpetuate negative stereotypes; while illegal aliens, of any race/ethnicity donít.

We have been invaded by an estimated 12-20+ million foreigners, the majority of whom are Mexican or other Hispanics. We have no idea how many have fled their country to escape murder charges; or are drug traffickers, rapists, pedophiles, terrorists, or diseased. We simply donít know. Yet, itís somehow a racial issue because most are Hispanic.

Illegal immigration is more than a legal issue; itís a national security issue. As Americans, we need to unite to protect our country from foreign invaders; and race/ethnicity should be a non-issue. Ask any Vietnam combat vet what it was like fighting and not being able to distinguish between friend and foe. Itís time to take off the gloves, and itís time to take a stand. So yes, it does matter whether our fellow Americans-- be they Black, White, Asian, Native American, Hispanic, or polka dot are with us, or with those who have invaded our country.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:33 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,886 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
I'm not sure I even understand what this is supposed to mean in real terms. If a Puerto Rican or a hispanic-looking Hopi native walks into a store, they're going to be given "the evil eye" by the shopkeeper because of illegal immigration from Mexico?
If you read the whole thread, the answer would be yes. And many who are outraged by illegal immigration are saying they understand why. My only gripe is that people are admitting that their view of all Hispanics is being tarnished, which tells me racial prejudice is taking root and unfair treatment of innocent people is soon to follow (if it's not happening already). Civil behavior is unraveling.

I think that accepting why people would view all Hispanics as part of the problem only opens the door to further tensions, and eventually will lead to more ignorance and bigotry in our society. Shrugging your shoulders and believing that these repercussions for the entire Hispanic community are deserved, or even passing them off as acceptable, is just as wrong as illegal immigration when it comes down to it.

Sure, you may be suspicious of some people, but you should give those people the benefit of the doubt if you don't know for sure. When you start treating an entire ethnic group the same way because you're outraged by the actions of some, you shouldn't be surprised when people start bringing up racism. It can't be justified.

Bottom line is, people will use this forum to vent their frustrations. Some will let certain comments fly and even agree with them when the comments are borderline offensive and undeserving. It's easy to do in anonymous forum environment with a controversial issue like this. Generalizations get tossed around like misinformation in online forums. You need to challenge those comments and some peoples' way of thinking.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:34 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,077,271 times
Reputation: 2244
i dont buy this whole culture thing because mac talks about tribes and customs and third world this, thirld world that. that almost negates the complexities of an american nation like mexico.

but i dont fully agree with you either.

mexican culture is based on more than just when that country became a state. we could very well argue that the US was two different cultures until the civil war "unified" into a whole country[or state]. and that was well after 1820.

so this idea of culture is also more complex. our culture extends beyond the civil war. even before the US became a country.

mexicos culture, particularly the concept of LA RAZA, extends beyond its birth as a nation.

this thread has gone all around. a bit confusing.

but all i must say is that if you treat someone unfairly or prejudge them, based, not on their actions, but on the actions of someone else... well then that is just unacceptable and ignorant, and i cant see why that happens. so i dont condone that. i denounce that type of behaviour.
(the last bit was a general statement, not directed at you spec. JJ)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjwebbster View Post
I don't think Im going to buy the whole CULTURE thing. Mexican-American is a joke, something they chose to call themselves. Mexican is a nationality, not a race. Mexico didn't even become a country until 1820 or so. You can be one or the other, Mexican or American. Hyphenated Americans are just aliens that need an excuse, or some kind justification, to reject our Culture. The American "Culture" got us through WW2. We don't need to change the way we think now.

You got it right on one thing for sure though. There is a line in the sand. It starts at the Mexican border. If you are "them" and your "differences " make you special, then I have some advice for you. Go the hell home. We don't have the time or patience to deal with your "demands" anymore.

You think you can invade the USA by sneaking across the border? You think that makes you unique? We should support all your spawn? Give me a break ! Americans are just that "Americans", if you don't like it, LEAVE.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:37 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,823 posts, read 30,083,197 times
Reputation: 17698
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
but all i must say is that if you treat someone unfairly or prejudge them, based, not on their actions, but on the actions of someone else... well then that is just unacceptable and ignorant, and i cant see why that happens. so i dont condone that. i denounce that type of behaviour.
(the last bit was a general statement, not directed at you spec. JJ)
So in your opinion what is the shop owner to do? If he is getting ripped off by a certain group of people that is. Just keep getting ripped off?
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:40 PM
 
Location: SXSW
640 posts, read 1,515,104 times
Reputation: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
So by your own post you admit that the majority of hispanics are in favor of and or endorse illegal immigration. In which case the cold shoulder is in fact deserved. Especially in light of the fact that hispanics account for the vast majority of illegals.
Thank you for your honesty.
Well, from own speculation I'd say this is due to the fact that:
a) many Latinos (many Mexican) were recipients of an amnesty that occurred only about twenty years ago. This article underscores that

b) a overwhelming amount of supporters are VERY young and I'm sure many are probably children of illegal immigrants. *OR* teenagers who are very naive about how illegal immigration affects them or will affect them in their future personal and professional endeavors.
c) Due to Mexico's proximity, I'm sure is it common to have legal family members hope for an end to their separation...and would rather them regroup here. Again, this leads back to the 1986 amnesty.
D) Macmeal's very accurate post about many putting their "tribe" over everything else. Constant immigration and the inability/unwillingness to move out of comfort zones is going to renew that ethnic pride. I can say that it is very easy to "cubby hole" oneself in this country if one wanted to. This means that many Latinos do not get to form a wholly new American identity like black and white Americans did. Instead, I'd say it much more fragmented, with some feeling fiercely American, and others feeling like Mexicans/Cubans/etc. living in the US.
E) Frankly, there are moments where it is very tough to read certain things about anti-illegal immigration. There are posts on this forum with an incredible amount of hate. There are many racists out there. That is FACT. This thread itself seems to condone that it is acceptable to be hateful towards anyone who even LOOKS Hispanic. I remember the one thread started when the OP related Hispanic population growth to gangrene. I can promise you that there are people who feel scared and threatened by people who want so desperate to kick people who LOOK like them out. I cringe at the thought of someone looking down on someone like my father, a f***ing physics professor, though I'm sure that many on this board would have purely by the way he looks.

Moreover, if you look at the following report with an analysis of the 2006 Hispanic electorate,
http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/34.pdf
you can see how the percentage of Hispanic voters has dwindled as the entire Hispanic population has surged in the last ten years. it's fairly obvious that Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Hispanics who entered in legally and Americans of say Mexican descent (meaning they may have been here longer than the Anglos have) are very much outnumbered.

There are many legally here Hispanic people who I'd say are in a weird No Man's Land of ambivalence right now. Not feeling very accepted by either the Hyper-Hispanic group nor the anti-illegal immigrant camp.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:41 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,462,455 times
Reputation: 47456
funny, when sheep huddle together, the wolves call that cold shoulder.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:42 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,077,271 times
Reputation: 2244
install cameras and get a gun. next time ANYONE tries to rob him, hes prepared.

you stay vigilant, but you dont discriminate or treat people unfairly, its not that hard to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
So in your opinion what is the shop owner to do? If he is getting ripped off by a certain group of people that is. Just keep getting ripped off?
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:47 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjwebbster View Post
I don't think Im going to buy the whole CULTURE thing. Mexican-American is a joke, something they chose to call themselves. Mexican is a nationality, not a race. Mexico didn't even become a country until 1820 or so. You can be one or the other, Mexican or American. Hyphenated Americans are just aliens that need an excuse, or some kind justification, to reject our Culture. The American "Culture" got us through WW2. We don't need to change the way we think now.

You got it right on one thing for sure though. There is a line in the sand. It starts at the Mexican border. If you are "them" and your "differences " make you special, then I have some advice for you. Go the hell home. We don't have the time or patience to deal with your "demands" anymore.

You think you can invade the USA by sneaking across the border? You think that makes you unique? We should support all your spawn? Give me a break ! Americans are just that "Americans", if you don't like it, LEAVE.
The question of 'hyphenated Americans' is a complex one. In the case of Mexican-Americans, there is SOME historic justification for "calling themselves that". In fact, most of AMERICA "called them that" just two generations ago, and I know a number of elderly Mexican-Americans born in the US to PARENTS born in the US who, in fact, attended segregated schools in their childhood. So it's more than just a 'self-label'.

I do, however, agree that those days are LONG gone; and that at some point, we ALL have to put the past to rest and live in the present. The problem with the PERSISTENCE of the Mexican-American sense of being 'different' lies in the fact that, uniquely among ALL so-called "minority" groups, Mexicans are continually "walking in" from just across the fence. No other group has this proximity to the "old country", and that contributes to the situation.

I do know a LARGE number of Mexican-Americans who are totally "fed up" with the illegal situation, and are not averse to saying so....loudly and in 'no uncertain terms'. Yet the situation continues in which illegal activists "press" all Hispanics to "stick by your people"....and many non-Hispanic Americans view the Hispanic community with at least SOME assumption that they are sympathetic to illegals, regardless of HOW many generations their roots go back in the USA. I see this situation in my OWN circle, quite frequently.
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