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Old 05-18-2009, 09:52 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,011,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
But your comparison is between citizens of this country and illegal aliens. That is not a valid argument. If we had millions of Africans or Haitians living illegally in this country, and the majority of Black citizens refused to renounce them simply due to race -- then you would have something legitimate to compare.
The comparison was only made because it had relevance in a specific way (stereotyping and prejudice). Had there been a situation where another ethnic group was migrating to this country illegally in large numbers, I would imagine we'd already have some experience on how to handle the situation, but there isn't a precident. That's why I think it's even more important that people make the distinction and not just assume everyone is guilty.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:57 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,011,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I wholeheartedly agree that itís wrong to generalize. Itís also wrong to place illegal aliens on the same level as U.S. citizens.
And I haven't advocated illegals be placed on the same level as citizens - only that Hispanic citizens not be treated like illegals. Though I used a comparison between citizens and illegals, I never made the case in that comparison that they should both be considered citizens, only that stereotyping and prejudice came into play.
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:11 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,011,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I certainly agree that individuals should NOT be judged by the actions of a group. Unfortunately, in the real world, we often are judged by our appearance and what we "seem" to represent.

Muslim Americans shouldn't HAVE to disassociate themselves from violent terrorists..but to some degree, they must make that effort....just as White Southerners must often take extra steps to explain that they are NOT racists. That's just how 'group identity' works. If you're part of a group, you'll be assumed to be in 'sync' with that group. It's not fair, but it is a fact.

A few years ago, as I recall, the "good", overwhelmingly white residents of Couer d'Alene, Idaho, actually held some sort of steet rally. Why? To demonstrate to all concerned that they were GOOD, DECENT PEOPLE, and not neo-Nazi, white supremacist skinhead 'wackos', who are often associated with the Idaho panhandle. Should these people have "had" to do this? Of course not....but somehow, they felt compelled to make that effort, in order to 'clear their name'.

If you walk into a bank with a group of your buddies, coat pockets bulging, wearing ski masks and carrying pillow cases, you'd better be able to "prove" your intentions very convincingly to everyone in the area..because they MIGHT jump to conclusions. Should you HAVE to 'prove yourself' in this way? No....but it might be the easiest way to avoid trouble, because LOTS of people entering banks in ski masks really ARE 'bad guys'....and you just MIGHT be assumed to be one of them.

It's not fair, bit it IS 'real life'....

Remembering at all times, of course, that the choice is yours.
Yes, this is real life. But in a nation that is made up of multiple ethnic backgrounds, we have to make a better effort to be fair in situations like this and not pass judgment. I still don't buy into the fact that all Hispanics should be treated guilty until they rise up and prove their innocence and/or denounce illegal immigration to the world. Not doing so does not mean they deserve the unfair treatment. I think that's just giving people a free pass to give into their prejudice.

The point about the Idaho residents is nice, but that doesn't necessarily translate easily into a situation like this where there is no geographical center. Not every Hispanic will feel the need to put a sign on their front door saying they're here legally - just as the Japanese-American citizens back in WWII shouldn't have had to walk around with a sign on their backs saying they weren't spies... but many were shipped to concentration camps anyway I guess, citizen or not.

I guess all I'm saying is that I would like to think we are better than that. If we want to make a distinction between people who are anti-illegal immigration and those who happen to be racist, we sure as hell can make the distinction between illegals and those Hispanics that are here legally.
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:17 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,635,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Yes, this is real life. But in a nation that is made up of multiple ethnic backgrounds, we have to make a better effort to be fair in situations like this and not pass judgment. I still don't buy into the fact that all Hispanics should be treated guilty until they rise up and prove their innocence and/or denounce illegal immigration to the world. Not doing so does not mean they deserve the unfair treatment. I think that's just giving people a free pass to give into their prejudice.

The point about the Idaho residents is nice, but that doesn't necessarily translate easily into a situation like this where there is no geographical center. Not every Hispanic will feel the need to put a sign on their front door saying they're here legally - just as the Japanese-American citizens back in WWII shouldn't have had to walk around with a sign on their backs saying they weren't spies... but many were shipped to concentration camps anyway I guess, citizen or not.

I guess all I'm saying is that I would like to think we are better than that. If we want to make a distinction between people who are anti-illegal immigration and those who happen to be racist, we sure as hell can make the distinction between illegals and those Hispanics that are here legally.
Well, you do make some fine points about those of us who do what we "should"....and I agree with you. I'm only putting in some practical advice to be used in case we run in to those who DON'T do what they "should". As I said, this is only advice, and again, the choice ultimately is up to the individual.

Just after 9/11, in those first days when flying around the US was once again allowed....(and when MOST of us really didn't understand what had "hit us")...an Arab-American businessman from here in the LA area actually wrote a letter to the editor of the LA Times PRAISING the "authorities" at the airport for PROFILING HIM (!). True story.

The man explained that he, like all of us, didn't know what the threat was, exactly..but until it was understood, he realized that "men who looked like him" presented some sort of threat to air travel....and he was willing to be 'looked at' a little more than others, if by so doing, we could reduce that threat.

Was he correct in feeling this way? I don't know....but it took a lot of character to voice that viewpoint....and I can understand his rationale.

Something to think about, at least.

Last edited by macmeal; 05-18-2009 at 10:56 PM..
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:43 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,011,100 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
well we know the difference, but the people who will indoubtedly treat them differently will do so, based on the way they look.

thats what it comes down to. that is what has been agreed upon here, and that is what people think they deserve for not condeming illegals.

we are smarter than to preduge, but most people will not stop to think, "do they have papers?". they wont. they will treat these people based on their supposed illegality which they measure by the way they look.

its not race baiting, its reality. a sad reality.

but thats profiling. there is another thread in controversies that asks if black men are asking to be discriminated by dressing "hip hop/gangster".

that one was shot down pretty quick...

stuff to think about.
That's what I fear to be true - that deep down, many people (not necessarily most) who are passionate about this issue feel that all Hispanics actually deserve to be treated like they're part of the problem, regardless if they are legal or not. That tells me there's more to the person's feelings than illegal immigration. Sounds more like a deep-rooted prejudice that tends to be revealed in discussions like this.

You can't justify unfair treatment, I don't care how much you "understand" it. I've heard a lot of people mention they understand those who generalize and view all Hispanics as being part of the problem, but nobody has said anything negative about those people - only that they don't condone the generalizations. Makes you wonder how many actually think they're wrong for generalizing and making those unfair statements.

I guess maybe I'm being a little unfair. I want to be able to completely remove racism from the equation so that it can be a more legitimate discussion. [sarcasm] But the only way to do that, I suppose, would be to have everyone against illegal immigration to loudly denounce the bigots and racists and those who are harboring them... and if they don't, they deserve to be treated as if they were racists and bigots while they voice their anti-illegal immigration views. [/sarcasm] And on that note, I'm off to bed. Glad I could leave this post with a smile.
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,678,111 times
Reputation: 3785
My step sister (Italian/Irish heritage) gets mistaken for Latina a lot due to her very dark skin-----------never mind she is 100% 'White' in the legal sense.

Flip side: a 'Hispanic' I know gets pegged as Anglo a lot-----------he is (literally) White with light hair and blue eyes.
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Old 05-18-2009, 11:09 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,635,197 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
I guess maybe I'm being a little unfair. I want to be able to completely remove racism from the equation so that it can be a more legitimate discussion. [sarcasm] But the only way to do that, I suppose, would be to have everyone against illegal immigration to loudly denounce the bigots and racists and those who are harboring them... and if they don't, they deserve to be treated as if they were racists and bigots while they voice their anti-illegal immigration views. [/sarcasm] And on that note, I'm off to bed. Glad I could leave this post with a smile.
Regardless of our disagreements, one thing I've ALWAYS been is a huge fan of sarcasm..(and a frequent contributor of same)..and in regard to your above point, I WILL say that I've FREQUENTLY gone to great lengths, and even risked a bit of repetition (a LARGE bit), in making the point that I AM against the continuation of illegal immigration, yet am NOT a racist NOR a bigot.

Did I "have" to make that point?...no, I did not. I VOLUNTARILY elected to point out my 'non-bigoted' stance, NOT because it's anybody's business..and NOT because it's neccessary in a discussion on illegal immigration....but because I feared, (with some justification) that had I NOT made that distinction, many readers would be moved to "judge" me, and to simply ASSUME I was a racist and a bigot....so in order to forestall such a bigoted view of my intentions on the part of others, I took steps to EXPLAIN my non-bigoted position, for fear I'd be 'painted with the bigoted brush' by those non-racists who are quick to jump to bigoted conclusions regarding the bigotry of others

Sleep well. Some day I'll explain my feelings on tolerance....and how far we must go in tolerating the intolerant.....and whether we should blow up those who MIGHT be inclined to start wars.. and whether physical force should be used against those who are violent.....
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Old 05-19-2009, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
The comparison was only made because it had relevance in a specific way (stereotyping and prejudice). Had there been a situation where another ethnic group was migrating to this country illegally in large numbers, I would imagine we'd already have some experience on how to handle the situation, but there isn't a precident. That's why I think it's even more important that people make the distinction and not just assume everyone is guilty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
And I haven't advocated illegals be placed on the same level as citizens - only that Hispanic citizens not be treated like illegals. Though I used a comparison between citizens and illegals, I never made the case in that comparison that they should both be considered citizens, only that stereotyping and prejudice came into play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Yes, this is real life. But in a nation that is made up of multiple ethnic backgrounds, we have to make a better effort to be fair in situations like this and not pass judgment. I still don't buy into the fact that all Hispanics should be treated guilty until they rise up and prove their innocence and/or denounce illegal immigration to the world. Not doing so does not mean they deserve the unfair treatment. I think that's just giving people a free pass to give into their prejudice.

The point about the Idaho residents is nice, but that doesn't necessarily translate easily into a situation like this where there is no geographical center. Not every Hispanic will feel the need to put a sign on their front door saying they're here legally - just as the Japanese-American citizens back in WWII shouldn't have had to walk around with a sign on their backs saying they weren't spies... but many were shipped to concentration camps anyway I guess, citizen or not.

I guess all I'm saying is that I would like to think we are better than that. If we want to make a distinction between people who are anti-illegal immigration and those who happen to be racist, we sure as hell can make the distinction between illegals and those Hispanics that are here legally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
That's what I fear to be true - that deep down, many people (not necessarily most) who are passionate about this issue feel that all Hispanics actually deserve to be treated like they're part of the problem, regardless if they are legal or not. That tells me there's more to the person's feelings than illegal immigration. Sounds more like a deep-rooted prejudice that tends to be revealed in discussions like this.

You can't justify unfair treatment, I don't care how much you "understand" it. I've heard a lot of people mention they understand those who generalize and view all Hispanics as being part of the problem, but nobody has said anything negative about those people - only that they don't condone the generalizations. Makes you wonder how many actually think they're wrong for generalizing and making those unfair statements.

I guess maybe I'm being a little unfair. I want to be able to completely remove racism from the equation so that it can be a more legitimate discussion. [sarcasm] But the only way to do that, I suppose, would be to have everyone against illegal immigration to loudly denounce the bigots and racists and those who are harboring them... and if they don't, they deserve to be treated as if they were racists and bigots while they voice their anti-illegal immigration views. [/sarcasm] And on that note, I'm off to bed. Glad I could leave this post with a smile.
I clearly understand your position. As a black person, I have personal experiences with both discrimination and stereotyping. I have been a consultant for several government agencies and major corporations, and have seen the looks of astonishment upon my initial visit. I even overheard one woman telling her coworker that she had spoken with me on several occasions over the phone, but had no idea I was black. In other words, elocution is not a characteristic of Black Americans, nor is professionalism. So yes, I have many firsthand experiences with the ugliness of prejudice.

How do you suggest we differentiate between Hispanic citizens and Hispanic illegal aliens? There is no easy answer. Do we assume every Hispanic we see is legal, to ensure fair treatment for all? Or, do we simply throw in the towel and embrace illegal immigration, and allow our country to be transformed from first-world to third-world? Iím not willing to do either. If we assume everyone is legal, we have essentially legitimized illegal immigration. If we permit our country to be destroyed, we all lose.

By no means am I advocating mistreatment of Hispanics. Nor am I using illegal immigration as a justification for discrimination against Hispanics. However, I do believe there should be strident opposition from Hispanic anti-illegals. Thus far, we have heard nothing; and I believe U.S. citizens need to be exposed to something which counteracts the vociferous pro-illegal movement. Perhaps if more Hispanics become involved with anti-illegal organizations such as ďYou Donít Speak For MeĒ it will become glaringly clear that there are many Hispanics who oppose illegal immigration. I donít know, I could be wrong; but I think itís at least worth a try.

It isnít fair to treat all Hispanics as though they are illegal aliens. Likewise, it isnít fair to treat all opponents of illegal immigration as racists. However, the pro-illegal movement -- in particular, people such as Janet Murguia, have labeled ALL who oppose illegal immigration as racists and nativists. It has become their mantra in the illegal immigration debate. Campaigns such as the La Raza ďStop The HateĒ only adds fuel to the fire. Some folks are actually afraid to say anything negative when speaking of Hispanics, for fear of being labeled a racist. Iím sorry, but illegal immigration is wrong; and the fact that the majority are Hispanic, should not dissuade dialogue or vilify opponents.

I donít believe the vast majority of anti-illegals are racists or mean-spirited. I believe most are simply fed up, frustrated, and angry. Having thousands of illegal aliens and their peddlers/supporters marching in our streets making demands certainly doesnít mitigate the problem. If anything, it inflames and elicits even more feelings of disdain toward illegal aliens and their advocates. Itís tantamount to pouring salt on a wound. How dare they spit in our faces after we have been so generous, and tolerated so much?

I personally know many people who donít have a racist bone in their bodies, who have admitted they are now sickened by the sight of Hispanics, or the sound of Spanish being spoken, simply due to illegal immigration and the sheer arrogance and sense of entitlement so prevalent among many illegal aliens. They feel used and abused, and they donít like it. Itís not an aversion to Hispanics; itís an intense abhorrence of illegal immigration. Sadly, for many, it has become increasingly difficult to separate the two.

I am not a racist, and the only people I have any feelings of hatred toward, are those who harm children. I would love for all citizens of this country to live in harmony. I would also love to eviscerate all forms of bigotry. However, I realize that will never become a reality in this country.

I honestly donít believe we will find an amicable solution to this problem as long as massive numbers of illegal aliens are permitted to remain in this country; particularly given our current economic woes.

If I have offended anyone, it certainly was not my intention. Iím simply expressing my honest feelings. If we canít deal with this issue candidly, we will never reach an accord.

I tried to be succinct, but failed. Sorry for the lengthy post.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,678,111 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I clearly understand your position. As a black person, I have personal experiences with both discrimination and stereotyping. I have been a consultant for several government agencies and major corporations, and have seen the looks of astonishment upon my initial visit. I even overheard one woman telling her coworker that she had spoken with me on several occasions over the phone, but had no idea I was black. In other words, elocution is not a characteristic of Black Americans, nor is professionalism. So yes, I have many firsthand experiences with the ugliness of prejudice.

How do you suggest we differentiate between Hispanic citizens and Hispanic illegal aliens? There is no easy answer. Do we assume every Hispanic we see is legal, to ensure fair treatment for all? Or, do we simply throw in the towel and embrace illegal immigration, and allow our country to be transformed from first-world to third-world? Iím not willing to do either. If we assume everyone is legal, we have essentially legitimized illegal immigration. If we permit our country to be destroyed, we all lose.

By no means am I advocating mistreatment of Hispanics. Nor am I using illegal immigration as a justification for discrimination against Hispanics. However, I do believe there should be strident opposition from Hispanic anti-illegals. Thus far, we have heard nothing; and I believe U.S. citizens need to be exposed to something which counteracts the vociferous pro-illegal movement. Perhaps if more Hispanics become involved with anti-illegal organizations such as ďYou Donít Speak For MeĒ it will become glaringly clear that there are many Hispanics who oppose illegal immigration. I donít know, I could be wrong; but I think itís at least worth a try.

It isnít fair to treat all Hispanics as though they are illegal aliens. Likewise, it isnít fair to treat all opponents of illegal immigration as racists. However, the pro-illegal movement -- in particular, people such as Janet Murguia, have labeled ALL who oppose illegal immigration as racists and nativists. It has become their mantra in the illegal immigration debate. Campaigns such as the La Raza ďStop The HateĒ only adds fuel to the fire. Some folks are actually afraid to say anything negative when speaking of Hispanics, for fear of being labeled a racist. Iím sorry, but illegal immigration is wrong; and the fact that the majority are Hispanic, should not dissuade dialogue or vilify opponents.

I donít believe the vast majority of anti-illegals are racists or mean-spirited. I believe most are simply fed up, frustrated, and angry. Having thousands of illegal aliens and their peddlers/supporters marching in our streets making demands certainly doesnít mitigate the problem. If anything, it inflames and elicits even more feelings of disdain toward illegal aliens and their advocates. Itís tantamount to pouring salt on a wound. How dare they spit in our faces after we have been so generous, and tolerated so much?

I personally know many people who donít have a racist bone in their bodies, who have admitted they are now sickened by the sight of Hispanics, or the sound of Spanish being spoken, simply due to illegal immigration and the sheer arrogance and sense of entitlement so prevalent among many illegal aliens. They feel used and abused, and they donít like it. Itís not an aversion to Hispanics; itís an intense abhorrence of illegal immigration. Sadly, for many, it has become increasingly difficult to separate the two.

I am not a racist, and the only people I have any feelings of hatred toward, are those who harm children. I would love for all citizens of this country to live in harmony. I would also love to eviscerate all forms of bigotry. However, I realize that will never become a reality in this country.

I honestly donít believe we will find an amicable solution to this problem as long as massive numbers of illegal aliens are permitted to remain in this country; particularly given our current economic woes.

If I have offended anyone, it certainly was not my intention. Iím simply expressing my honest feelings. If we canít deal with this issue candidly, we will never reach an accord.

I tried to be succinct, but failed. Sorry for the lengthy post.
'Long' post perhaps: but, extremely well written and you touched on a lot of points.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
'Long' post perhaps: but, extremely well written and you touched on a lot of points.
Thanks! I promise not to post one this long again. I just needed to vent.
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