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Old 05-21-2009, 08:22 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,079,640 times
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See what I don't understand is how illegal immigrants can be both viewed as slaves and benefactors at the same time...
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Old 05-21-2009, 08:53 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
See what I don't understand is how illegal immigrants can be both viewed as slaves and benefactors at the same time...
Slaves, by their presence, and by the fact of slavery's existence as an 'institution', degraded, compromised, and coarsened Southern culture, and the aftereffects are still with us. But they sure as hell BENEFITTED their owners!....talk about LOW WAGES !!...
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Old 05-21-2009, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,633,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Slaves, by their presence, and by the fact of slavery's existence as an 'institution', degraded, compromised, and coarsened Southern culture, and the aftereffects are still with us. But they sure as hell BENEFITTED their owners!....talk about LOW WAGES !!...
No joke.

Also throughout at least modern history: cultures that did not 'benefit' from slavery tended to do much better overall.

Look at the differences being the antebellum North and South right here in the USA. The much greater industrialization up north in large part helped ensure the defeat of the Confederacy despite the latter's knowledge of the terrain, society, better generals, etc.

Mexico in a lot of regards reminds me of the (historical) American South. Mestizos/Indians as a group=Black slaves. White Mexicans=plantation owners.
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Old 05-21-2009, 11:53 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,079,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Slaves, by their presence, and by the fact of slavery's existence as an 'institution', degraded, compromised, and coarsened Southern culture, and the aftereffects are still with us. But they sure as hell BENEFITTED their owners!....talk about LOW WAGES !!...
Do you even know the definition of "benefactor"?
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Old 05-22-2009, 07:54 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Do you even know the definition of "benefactor"?
No....I just learned the word last Tuesday, and at that time, I got the spelling, but have yet to learn the definition. What, exactly, does it mean?...
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Old 05-22-2009, 08:56 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,079,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
No....I just learned the word last Tuesday, and at that time, I got the spelling, but have yet to learn the definition. What, exactly, does it mean?...
Well, the reason I ask that is because you stated that the "owners" benefit, not the "slaves". I pointed out that many say that illegal immigrants are both "slaves" and the people who benefit out of the situation. However, you can't be a pimp and a prostitute too...(White Stripes Song).
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Old 05-22-2009, 04:42 PM
 
Location: galaxy far far away
3,111 posts, read 4,399,909 times
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Problem is, the illegal population is overcrowding the country and stressing an aging infrastructure that was built for a slower growth. Our hospitals are overcrowded, understaffed, and underfunded.

YouTube - Immigration and Infrastructure - Ed Rubenstein part 2

We taxpayers are paying for a lot of illegal immigrant's babies because of the 14th amendment loophole. The babies are generally not as healthy because their mother swam the Rio Grande or walked across a 120 degree desert in her last week of pregnancy. We need to challenge that loophole in court and change it.

And disease, not to mention the Swine Flu, is yet another reason to be concerned.
Illegal Immigrants Are Spreading Dangerous Diseases Across This Nation (http://www.goofigure.com/UserGoofigureDetail.asp?gooID=6450& - broken link)
Sick illegal immigrants stuffed carted across the border in Coyote vans, then stored in small places like so much furniture. It's inhumane. Yet, we keep making this the US's problem. THIS is MEXICO's Problem!! They apparently don't care about their own citizens!
46 people found in one-bedroom drop house | LOCAL NEWS | Arizona | azfamily.com (http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/phoenix-news-052209-drop-house.72fc393.html - broken link)


I say the best way to handle this is to make Mexico care. Shame them. Make THAT the news! Not the border fence, not how we handle immigration, not how many people die trying to get here illegally. People who protest that we aren't taking care of the illegal immigrants, or that we are unfairly targeting them, haven't stepped forward and offered their homes! This is the Mexican government's problem. Why don't they care about their own citizens? About the babies being born under terrible circumstances? About thousands dying every year on the desert to ESCAPE MEXICO as if it's Alcatraz? Why doesn't Mexico hang its head in shame? Why is this conversation EVER about US policies, about amnesty, about us "being fair?"

Here's what Mexico thinks about you if YOU go to Mexico Illegally:
- HUMAN EVENTS

The best email that has ever gone around on this topic is the one about a person coming home from work to find that someone has broken into their house and moved in. When the homeowner tells them to leave, the person who is there illegally says,
"But I cleaned your living room! I mowed your lawn!"
The homeowner says, "That doesn't give you permission to move into my house!"
"But I want to stay here."
"I don't care, I don't want you here, I'm calling the police."
And the Illegal person says, ""But I cut myself breaking your window to get into your house! You owe me medical care! And You have to Feed Me! And my wife and kids are coming here. My wife is pregnant and if she gives birth in your living room, we can stay in your house as long as we want because our child now owns your house!"
"You can't live here. This is MY HOME! I paid for it! I paid for the plumbing, the electricity, for the roof, for the landscaping. You didn't pay for anything, YOU BROKE IN!"
"Well, then, I'm going to go get all my friends to picket your house and tell your neighbors how awful you are. I'm going to tell the newspapers that YOU OWE ME a roof over my head and a place for my wife and children to live!"

Do i need to go on? To me, this is what illegal immigration is all about. I can't just decide to go live in Mexico without going through THEIR bureaucracy. And they can't come here without going through ours. If they are here illegally... This is NOT their home.

They are welcome to take the tests, go through the process, and learn the history, and speak the language of the US. But they don't get to try and make people feel guilty because they made a personal choice to break the laws of this country regarding immigration.

And, BTW - Bureaucracy is Bureaucracy for a reason. It keeps things from happening so fast that we can't get a handle on it. All those things that the Mexicans are coming here for will disappear in very short order if we don't get a handle on this growth, the illness, the hospitals, the public infrastructure like roads, electricity, water, sewer. Taxes pay for all of that. And right now, the cities and states aren't collecting as much tax as they were. We will all find ourselves paying 50% tax on our incomes if this doesn't slow down soon. It's not about "what's fair." It's about what is right. And you don't get to break into my home and live there without my express permission, and they don't get to break into the USA and live here without our Govt's oversight and permission.

How about we use our resources, our sympathy, our consideration for the working poor in the USA? How about we go work in the homeless shelters this Memorial weekend and give some love to our homeless Vets? How about we push for better schools for our legal citizens? How about we push to clean up the drug trade so we won't have the cartels at our borders destroying our population from within?

I love this country. And I'm scared for us. We are losing the things that have made us great. God Bless America.

(http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/phoenix-news-052209-drop-house.72fc393.html - broken link)
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Texas
470 posts, read 508,347 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Cowgirl View Post

They are welcome to take the tests, go through the process, and learn the history, and speak the language of the US. But they don't get to try and make people feel guilty because they made a personal choice to break the laws of this country regarding immigration.


(http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/phoenix-news-052209-drop-house.72fc393.html - broken link)

Maybe you missed election 08'. Its all about sob stories and making legislative choices and laws that make people "feel" better. Immigration will be no exception.
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Old 05-22-2009, 08:38 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,079,640 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Cowgirl View Post
Problem is, the illegal population is overcrowding the country and stressing an aging infrastructure that was built for a slower growth. Our hospitals are overcrowded, understaffed, and underfunded.

YouTube - Immigration and Infrastructure - Ed Rubenstein part 2

We taxpayers are paying for a lot of illegal immigrant's babies because of the 14th amendment loophole. The babies are generally not as healthy because their mother swam the Rio Grande or walked across a 120 degree desert in her last week of pregnancy. We need to challenge that loophole in court and change it.

And disease, not to mention the Swine Flu, is yet another reason to be concerned.
Illegal Immigrants Are Spreading Dangerous Diseases Across This Nation (http://www.goofigure.com/UserGoofigureDetail.asp?gooID=6450& - broken link)
Sick illegal immigrants stuffed carted across the border in Coyote vans, then stored in small places like so much furniture. It's inhumane. Yet, we keep making this the US's problem. THIS is MEXICO's Problem!! They apparently don't care about their own citizens!
46 people found in one-bedroom drop house | LOCAL NEWS | Arizona | azfamily.com (http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/phoenix-news-052209-drop-house.72fc393.html - broken link)


I say the best way to handle this is to make Mexico care. Shame them. Make THAT the news! Not the border fence, not how we handle immigration, not how many people die trying to get here illegally. People who protest that we aren't taking care of the illegal immigrants, or that we are unfairly targeting them, haven't stepped forward and offered their homes! This is the Mexican government's problem. Why don't they care about their own citizens? About the babies being born under terrible circumstances? About thousands dying every year on the desert to ESCAPE MEXICO as if it's Alcatraz? Why doesn't Mexico hang its head in shame? Why is this conversation EVER about US policies, about amnesty, about us "being fair?"

Here's what Mexico thinks about you if YOU go to Mexico Illegally:
- HUMAN EVENTS

The best email that has ever gone around on this topic is the one about a person coming home from work to find that someone has broken into their house and moved in. When the homeowner tells them to leave, the person who is there illegally says,
"But I cleaned your living room! I mowed your lawn!"
The homeowner says, "That doesn't give you permission to move into my house!"
"But I want to stay here."
"I don't care, I don't want you here, I'm calling the police."
And the Illegal person says, ""But I cut myself breaking your window to get into your house! You owe me medical care! And You have to Feed Me! And my wife and kids are coming here. My wife is pregnant and if she gives birth in your living room, we can stay in your house as long as we want because our child now owns your house!"
"You can't live here. This is MY HOME! I paid for it! I paid for the plumbing, the electricity, for the roof, for the landscaping. You didn't pay for anything, YOU BROKE IN!"
"Well, then, I'm going to go get all my friends to picket your house and tell your neighbors how awful you are. I'm going to tell the newspapers that YOU OWE ME a roof over my head and a place for my wife and children to live!"

Do i need to go on? To me, this is what illegal immigration is all about. I can't just decide to go live in Mexico without going through THEIR bureaucracy. And they can't come here without going through ours. If they are here illegally... This is NOT their home.

They are welcome to take the tests, go through the process, and learn the history, and speak the language of the US. But they don't get to try and make people feel guilty because they made a personal choice to break the laws of this country regarding immigration.

And, BTW - Bureaucracy is Bureaucracy for a reason. It keeps things from happening so fast that we can't get a handle on it. All those things that the Mexicans are coming here for will disappear in very short order if we don't get a handle on this growth, the illness, the hospitals, the public infrastructure like roads, electricity, water, sewer. Taxes pay for all of that. And right now, the cities and states aren't collecting as much tax as they were. We will all find ourselves paying 50% tax on our incomes if this doesn't slow down soon. It's not about "what's fair." It's about what is right. And you don't get to break into my home and live there without my express permission, and they don't get to break into the USA and live here without our Govt's oversight and permission.

How about we use our resources, our sympathy, our consideration for the working poor in the USA? How about we go work in the homeless shelters this Memorial weekend and give some love to our homeless Vets? How about we push for better schools for our legal citizens? How about we push to clean up the drug trade so we won't have the cartels at our borders destroying our population from within?

I love this country. And I'm scared for us. We are losing the things that have made us great. God Bless America.

(http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/phoenix-news-052209-drop-house.72fc393.html - broken link)
We have the lowest population density of most industrialized nations (OZ, Canada, and Russia have lower)...but seeing how we have suitable land than those areas, I'd hardly call us overpopulated. We actually have fairly slow growth, and the infrastructure is aging because we didn't place a priority on it. We have the world's largest budget on healthcare. We spend more of a percentage on healthcare than any other nation...it's pure waste that's all.

The majority of illegal immigrants pay taxes. Swine flu is not even "swine flu". It is H1N1, and that's due to two receptors (out of tons and tons) located at H1 and N1. It's genome is completely different than that of the 1918 epidemic. It is less virulent and way less deadly.

What we should do is engage with Meixco to form a cohesive plan that increases controlled immigration and decreases illegal immigration. This is a win-win. How? I really don't know...I doubt anyone really knows on this forum.

The funny thing about a house is, well, it's not a country.

Why don't we push for better schools in general? Why not try to legalize and regulate drugs so they are safer and less in the hands of the black market (which will always be there, but at least to a lesser extent). I'm still down to volunteer at a homeless shelter (which I think we need more homeless shelters and a better program to make cheap public housing...work as a construction worker on a site of public housing to obtain it? Just a thought...)

I love this country too. We all do, but we sometimes need to not look at nostalgia and feel that America has lost its luster. It's just taken on a different tint...and we should help it thrive and prosper.
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Old 05-23-2009, 07:59 AM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,900,435 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
We have the lowest population density of most industrialized nations (OZ, Canada, and Russia have lower)...but seeing how we have suitable land than those areas, I'd hardly call us overpopulated. We actually have fairly slow growth, and the infrastructure is aging because we didn't place a priority on it. We have the world's largest budget on healthcare. We spend more of a percentage on healthcare than any other nation...it's pure waste that's all.

The majority of illegal immigrants pay taxes. Swine flu is not even "swine flu". It is H1N1, and that's due to two receptors (out of tons and tons) located at H1 and N1. It's genome is completely different than that of the 1918 epidemic. It is less virulent and way less deadly.

What we should do is engage with Meixco to form a cohesive plan that increases controlled immigration and decreases illegal immigration. This is a win-win. How? I really don't know...I doubt anyone really knows on this forum.

The funny thing about a house is, well, it's not a country.

Why don't we push for better schools in general? Why not try to legalize and regulate drugs so they are safer and less in the hands of the black market (which will always be there, but at least to a lesser extent). I'm still down to volunteer at a homeless shelter (which I think we need more homeless shelters and a better program to make cheap public housing...work as a construction worker on a site of public housing to obtain it? Just a thought...)

I love this country too. We all do, but we sometimes need to not look at nostalgia and feel that America has lost its luster. It's just taken on a different tint...and we should help it thrive and prosper.
There you go again with your line of BS reducing American's desire to rid itself of the financial, emotional, criminal destruction and drain of illegal aliens to nostalgia. Why is it so hard for you and your ilk to comprehend that we have no desire to be an extension of everything that is wrong with Mexico? If those of you squatting in this country illegally have done nothing else, you have clearly fingered yourselves as being the source of all that is wrong with mexico. Thus, making it more than obvious that the decent mexicans have stayed behind hoping to improve mexico.

Whatever meager taxes those of you who have stolen identities pay is a mere pittance in comparison to the billions that the millions here rape American taxpayers for annually. Whatever sales tax you pay won't even put a dent in what your ilk costs America annually. You don't love America. What you love is what America has to offer at free and reduced rates to illegal aliens at the expense of America's sovereignty and tax dollars.

I would love to see a link that clearly states that illegal aliens pay enough taxes to offset the cost of their lawless, burdensome presence in this country. Even if amnesty were passed tomorrow we are talking about a lifetime of subsidizing millions of illiterate low wage earners with a multitude of kids whose EIC at the end of each tax year would cost America billions of tax dollars. Thus, they would be to the US what they are to mexico, a net value of zero.

There is not enough money in the world that would justify Americans sitting back in silence, legalizing drugs and spending more money to finance the current invasion and destruction of America. If that's what you are anticipating will happen, I promise you it ain't gonna happen. We owe you and mexico nothing.

Sorry dude, you invaded the wrong country.

Last edited by JDubsMom; 05-23-2009 at 08:46 AM..
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