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Old 05-11-2009, 04:56 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,898,849 times
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After 20 years of sporadic English classes, Esperanza Marrufo still stumbles over the language, exasperated when unable to find the right word.

"Part of my problem is...I can't express myself!" said Marrufo, 43, in her native Spanish. "I want to keep practicing so I can enter fully into American society."

Though that desire is shared by thousands of immigrants -- even as critics often chastise them for not integrating quickly enough -- opportunities to learn English are harder to come by in Illinois, according to a study released today.

***********
"I need my city certificate because I want to take...como se dice?...una educacion...advanced education for becoming teachers," she said.

Upon finishing, Marrufo wondered: "Did you understand me?"

Study: State not meeting demand for learning English -- chicagotribune.com

Gee, maybe if these future rocket scientists invested their own pesos to learn English before they get here and came here LEGALLY it wouldn't take them 20 years to learn ONE language. I suppose they'll start demanding that the taxpayers waste a few billion more on ESL. Good lord . . .
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:10 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,036,601 times
Reputation: 2873
Immersion will be the only thing to enable most adults into become fluent in a second language. I wonder where Ms. Marrufo has lived these past twenty years --- in an hispanic neighborhood where she didn't have to speak English to get to know her neighbors/buy a newspaper/drop off dry cleaning?
Immigrant neighborhoods are nothing new, but nowadays to self segregate while trying to become a citizen of a new country is really detrimental.
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,768,384 times
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This is why we need English to be a national official language and reasonable fluency required as a condition of legal immigration.

The problem will go away as it relates to criminal aliens if and when we can get them all out and keep our borders secure.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Immersion will be the only thing to enable most adults into become fluent in a second language. I wonder where Ms. Marrufo has lived these past twenty years --- in an hispanic neighborhood where she didn't have to speak English to get to know her neighbors/buy a newspaper/drop off dry cleaning?
Immigrant neighborhoods are nothing new, but nowadays to self segregate while trying to become a citizen of a new country is really detrimental.
As you stated.

Some years ago I worked at a tire shop that had quite a few Spanish speaking Hispanics (most of whom were legal I suspect) and, out of curiousity, I started picking up some of their lingo. Admmitedly; all the guys spoke at least passible English.

Suffice to say: had I been there for a few years and lived in a Spanish language Latino neighborhood---------methinks I would be speaking fluent Spanish in 2-3 years.
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:02 AM
 
4,275 posts, read 7,889,300 times
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But how much should one know before coming to the US?

How much English should we expect a low skilled laborer to learn before coming here? What about a higher skilled laborer or worker? Should the standards be any different?

And anyway, this thread should be moved to the political forum, or the legal immigration forum. Otherwise having this thread here sends the wrong message; illegal immigration forums should only contain threads directly about illegal immigration - full stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
Gee, maybe if these future rocket scientists invested their own pesos to learn English before they get here and came here LEGALLY it wouldn't take them 20 years to learn ONE language. I suppose they'll start demanding that the taxpayers waste a few billion more on ESL. Good lord . . .

Last edited by Vicman; 05-12-2009 at 01:03 AM.. Reason: nvm - she was being quoted in spanish
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:47 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,722,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicman View Post
But how much should one know before coming to the US?

How much English should we expect a low skilled laborer to learn before coming here? What about a higher skilled laborer or worker? Should the standards be any different?

And anyway, this thread should be moved to the political forum, or the legal immigration forum. Otherwise having this thread here sends the wrong message; illegal immigration forums should only contain threads directly about illegal immigration - full stop.
The lower skilled laborers are brought in on H2B visas which provide temporary legal status. If they're here on a temporary basis, they wouldn't need to be very fluent in English.

Anyone who plans on staying needs to learn English obviously. Immigrants should be capable of assimilating and have the desire to become American. We don't really need the two-digit IQ types that cannot learn language and job skills when we have plenty who want to come.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:17 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,802 posts, read 30,052,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The lower skilled laborers are brought in on H2B visas which provide temporary legal status. If they're here on a temporary basis, they wouldn't need to be very fluent in English.

Anyone who plans on staying needs to learn English obviously. Immigrants should be capable of assimilating and have the desire to become American. We don't really need the two-digit IQ types that cannot learn language and job skills when we have plenty who want to come.
This is great point! My point goes directly against the Pro-Illegals that say these immigrants have harder work ethic than Americans. Let's look at the whole thing and part of what has been on the amnesty list. Learn English, they aren't. Pay taxes, most aren't. The list of points on the amnesty idea aren't being met, not even close!

Creating an underground economy and huddling together with a safety in numbers theme isn't much of a try at assimilation.
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:37 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,072,228 times
Reputation: 2244
i dont think pakistanis use pesos

these people want to learn english. they are taking the steps to do so.

this is very commendable. i applaud them. but of course you would not.

and i agree that they should seek other avenues to learning english. it is very fortunate that other places like churches and diff community orgs offer classes. the adult schools around here are packed with english learners. this is good news. it seems like the demand is higher.

oh, and legal status was never mentioned here. more

more ASSumptions on your part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
After 20 years of sporadic English classes, Esperanza Marrufo still stumbles over the language, exasperated when unable to find the right word.

"Part of my problem is...I can't express myself!" said Marrufo, 43, in her native Spanish. "I want to keep practicing so I can enter fully into American society."

Though that desire is shared by thousands of immigrants -- even as critics often chastise them for not integrating quickly enough -- opportunities to learn English are harder to come by in Illinois, according to a study released today.

***********
"I need my city certificate because I want to take...como se dice?...una educacion...advanced education for becoming teachers," she said.

Upon finishing, Marrufo wondered: "Did you understand me?"

Study: State not meeting demand for learning English -- chicagotribune.com

Gee, maybe if these future rocket scientists invested their own pesos to learn English before they get here and came here LEGALLY it wouldn't take them 20 years to learn ONE language. I suppose they'll start demanding that the taxpayers waste a few billion more on ESL. Good lord . . .
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:41 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,078,866 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
This is great point! My point goes directly against the Pro-Illegals that say these immigrants have harder work ethic than Americans. Let's look at the whole thing and part of what has been on the amnesty list. Learn English, they aren't. Pay taxes, most aren't. The list of points on the amnesty idea aren't being met, not even close!

Creating an underground economy and huddling together with a safety in numbers theme isn't much of a try at assimilation.
1) Our ESL programs are under par to what they should be. We have a lack of teachers and a high demand. Thus, we should look for alternative methods to cheaply, and effectively address that. We can hire college students, recent grads, the recently retired. These three demographics are the cheapest for the highest level of education.

2) The majority do pay taxes

3) Nobody knows how many people do want to learn English. I will say, that most likely the majority do. We just need to provide the resources available.

Many immigrants came over not knowing that much English and now speak fluently. They had a support system and, a lot of times, great ESL classes. The support system (strong sense of community in immigrant enclaves) is in place, but the ESL classes are lacking at times.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:08 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,711,852 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
i dont think pakistanis use pesos

these people want to learn english. they are taking the steps to do so.

this is very commendable. i applaud them. but of course you would not.

and i agree that they should seek other avenues to learning english. it is very fortunate that other places like churches and diff community orgs offer classes. the adult schools around here are packed with english learners. this is good news. it seems like the demand is higher.

oh, and legal status was never mentioned here. more

more ASSumptions on your part.
Pakistani? Where did you get that idea?

Quote:
"Part of my problem is...I can't express myself!" said Marrufo, 43, in her native Spanish. "I want to keep practicing so I can enter fully into American society."
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