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Old 05-15-2009, 12:52 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,093,729 times
Reputation: 822

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
If all the illegals left, CA may lose the sales tax illegals pay but they would save even more by not having to pay to educate illegal alien children, they would save a bundle if the state was no longer required to provide medical care to them (which they do not pay for), the state would no longer be on the hook for the costs of incarceration of the criminal illegals, there would be less need for interpreters in hospitals and courts, hopefully auto insurance rates would go down since there would be fewer uninsured drivers- sorry, but the positives of them leaving far outweigh the negatives.

Look, our own HS dropouts are use more in services than they pay in taxes. What on earth makes you think that the breadwinner of a family who has a 6th grade education and no job skills, who does not even speak English is going to somehow power the CA economy skyward?
We wouldn't be saving any money. We'd pay $ to have either an agency set up or pay for cops to determine legal status.

We already pay the schools, no difference there, auto rate won't go down, if anything hospital costs will either remain the same or increase in many areas. Our prisons, mirror the same percentage of Hispanics relative to CA's population. The majority of those are legal. US born residents are three times more likely to be in prison. With our overcrowded prisons and a high legal population in them...things will still not look too great.

Taking away many town's tax bases in which a significant amount of people make over 40k a year as a family (true not a whole lot, but tech. middle class) will do more harm than good.

See, you fail to realize that government hardly spends less. With that in mind, a decrease in revenue only means more debt. Also, you fail to realize the costs it will take for deportation. You again fail to see the demographics of the prisons in CA. So yeah, burdening our already maxed out resources doesn't seem like a great idea. Creating jobs, which in turn creates revenue, does seem a like a decent idea.

 
Old 05-15-2009, 12:54 AM
 
2,385 posts, read 3,718,528 times
Reputation: 2396
Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
Prejudices such as...
Most people have at least some prejudices. What I was saying was that people want their personal prejudices reinforced, whatever those prejudices may be.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 12:57 AM
 
Location: Where laws can be ignored due to political correctness
1,111 posts, read 1,586,380 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
Most people have at least some prejudices. What I was saying was that people want their personal prejudices reinforced, whatever those prejudices may be.
Well, thanks for being as specific as possible.

Care to cite some posts which contain whatever these 'prejudices' might be?
 
Old 05-15-2009, 01:09 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,093,729 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
Prejudices such as...
Well, for starters the threads that paint those from the third world as backwards, illegal immigrants as ALL being violent criminals, those that paint anyone who wants a more moderate or liberal reform (something less extreme) as ALL being somehow affliated with the Communist party.

Look, I get it. I have my biases as well. But, I admit them. I have even stated that of your gsome of your guy's ideas are not bad (high fines for employers that hire illegals for example, as well as some border patrol.). However, the inflexibility, even in light of non-biased sources, as well as recurrent threads and posts about how America is doomed and somehow how a more conservative 1950s America was better leads people to dismiss you (not you personally, but collectively) as dramatic. It's great to have passion, but it should be tempered with rationality and even comprimise.

I mean those that even show a little compassion and realize how complex the situation is are met with the same tired arguments (it's against the law period, they're poor, they uneducated, they think and act differently, my taxes are paying for them). By which we reply the same things (we know yet they are here now, well it's because of xyz that they are poor and if we do abc it will help, we should open our horizons to see a different viewpoint). At the end of the day, it becomes the same game. Frankly this subforum loses credibility by failing to recognize that people do rely on heuristics and sources that are VERY bias (very anti-immigrant websites). When people find articles from trusted news agencies that have been around for a while or from university studies or even goverment sites that are in opposition of your opinion, then we you simply ignore or say "I don't believe it" or find a source from a less well known place.

So what happens again is the same thing. Emotional appeal for deportation, a disagreement backed with data, name calling towards "pro-illegal" (dumb category name, reformist is more apt), name calling towards "anti-illegal" (dumb category name, pro-nationalist is more apt), and the cycle starts again...the dramatics don't work. Nothing gets done.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 08:14 AM
 
Location: San Diego
33,002 posts, read 30,272,140 times
Reputation: 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
That's why I said not deportation just by itself. You also have to end the enticements.
That is the key, no more open wallets where Illegals grab as much as they can.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 06:35 PM
 
16 posts, read 20,437 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
. It's great to have passion, but it should be tempered with rationality and even comprimise.

. Frankly this subforum loses credibility by failing to recognize that people do rely on heuristics and sources that are VERY bias (very anti-immigrant websites). .
I find this kind of a patronizing attitude. The discussion in this forum on your thread has been by my judgment indulgent, to-the-point and rational. If one were to stop playing evasive argumentative games and stop slinging skewed aphorisms straight out of Don Quixote ("It's great to have passion, but it should be tempered with rationality and even compromise." ?????) one might see that one can possess the perfectly valid, "credible" and transparent emotion of anger toward the illegal alien situation in America.

I get the sense one is a foreigner struggling with the English language and a bit with logic. One is apt to be taken as dogmatic or somehow unable to effectively sort out perfectly valid counter-arguments from the world-at-large. One wonders what "drama" this indicates is taking place in your--not our--- sphere of things.
Whatever, please don't tell us we lack credibility because, unlike robots or P.C. toads, we have strong and entirely justifiable convictions about certain matters.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 06:37 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,673,829 times
Reputation: 47474
the new criminal defense, dont get dramatic on me.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 06:50 PM
 
Location: San Diego
33,002 posts, read 30,272,140 times
Reputation: 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Marotta View Post
I find this kind of a patronizing attitude. The discussion in this forum on your thread has been by my judgment indulgent, to-the-point and rational. If one were to stop playing evasive argumentative games and stop slinging skewed aphorisms straight out of Don Quixote ("It's great to have passion, but it should be tempered with rationality and even compromise." ?????) one might see that one can possess the perfectly valid, "credible" and transparent emotion of anger toward the illegal alien situation in America.

I get the sense one is a foreigner struggling with the English language and a bit with logic. One is apt to be taken as dogmatic or somehow unable to effectively sort out perfectly valid counter-arguments from the world-at-large. One wonders what "drama" this indicates is taking place in your--not our--- sphere of things.
Whatever, please don't tell us we lack credibility because, unlike robots or P.C. toads, we have strong and entirely justifiable convictions about certain matters.
I need to print and frame this.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 06:57 PM
 
Location: USA
65 posts, read 20,071 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
It's like compromising with a rapist. No compromises. These people are criminals.

Some solutions I have:

1) Impose huge fines on anyone who hires or rents to criminal aliens.

2) Set up a hotline people can call to report criminal aliens or those hiring them. If information leads to convictions of employers or to deporations of criminal aliens, a reward can be provided. The money can be raised from the fines.

3) Any time a person is pulled over by the police or accused of committing a crime, citizenship or legal status will be verified. If it is determined the person is a criminal alien, he/she will be deported. If the crime is a felony, he/she will go through the regular trial process and imprisonment and will then be deported immediately.
Immigrants = Rapist

I got 3 proposals of my own for you:
1) Every Americans gets fingerprinted, his picture taken and his bank records canned as soon as he even tries to travel to another country.

2) We set up desert detention camps in the Sierra's of Spain or the backwoods of Germany where Americans can be held indefinitely w/o access to legal resources or even to their own embassy.

3) Any time an American works overseas and opens up his mouth (like you do), the employer get to threaten him with immediate deportation and forfeiture of all pay, lest he learns to shut up, bend over and take it like a b*tch.

You think my suggestions oure outrageous?
Immigrants (legal, illegal or schmelegal) are exposed to such treatments every day of the year in the US.

And with every extra step down that nasty road you turn this country more into a caricature of what it was meant to be.

And if you are ever in doubt about what the US was meant to be, then check out the founding fathers' motto stamped on the Great Seal of our country:
E Pluribus Unum -> Out of the many, ONE!

Every reasonable person is against illegal immigration, but what you folks r engaging in here is a damn witch hunt.
Maybe fewer six packs and more brain food would help you regain your proper bearings.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 07:08 PM
 
Location: San Diego
33,002 posts, read 30,272,140 times
Reputation: 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joghurta View Post
Immigrants = Rapist

I got 3 proposals of my own for you:
1) Every Americans gets fingerprinted, his picture taken and his bank records canned as soon as he even tries to travel to another country.

2) We set up desert detention camps in the Sierra's of Spain or the backwoods of Germany where Americans can be held indefinitely w/o access to legal resources or even to their own embassy.

3) Any time an American works overseas and opens up his mouth (like you do), the employer get to threaten him with immediate deportation and forfeiture of all pay, lest he learns to shut up, bend over and take it like a b*tch.

You think my suggestions oure outrageous?
Immigrants (legal, illegal or schmelegal) are exposed to such treatments every day of the year in the US.

And with every extra step down that nasty road you turn this country more into a caricature of what it was meant to be.

And if you are ever in doubt about what the US was meant to be, then check out the founding fathers' motto stamped on the Great Seal of our country:
E Pluribus Unum -> Out of the many, ONE!

Every reasonable person is against illegal immigration, but what you folks r engaging in here is a damn witch hunt.
Maybe fewer six packs and more brain food would help you regain your proper bearings.
You should know by now that with any data you toss out the high and low, the 'you folks' just got your answer deleted from the good data since you are implying all.
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