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Old 05-12-2009, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Where laws can be ignored due to political correctness
1,111 posts, read 1,584,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
OK this is exactly what I'm talking about!!! Collectively they aren't going around in murderous droves. Yet, people want to paint a picture a certain way. This tactic was done for the Jews, the Japanese (during interment), and others. I feel that a look into the sociological aspects of crime is needed.

Granted it's hard to view crime from both an individual POV and look at the greater aspects. But, I think that looking at each individual crime and how other crimes relate is needed.

With that said, a look at what the average illegal immigrant does is needed. The average illegal immigrant pays taxes (a majority pay taxes). The average illegal immigrant will not commit a crime. The average illegal immigrant is under educated and makes less than 30k a year for an average family size of roughly 4-6 people. Hence I call out over dramatization. Most posts go beyond the norm. Like the "illegal crime wave". If it somehow related to the average...then I would take it more seriously.
So what's your point? Despite the fact that they're criminals by default (illegal entry & overstaying a visa are crimes) they should be allowed to remain and break our laws just because many of them are from a poor countries? How are we supposed to know about their background? We just ASSUME there won't be many problems? If going by that logic, then how many problems are acceptable when committed by people who are not here legally?

Oh good. So, how about we invite hundreds of millions of poor people to pour into this country illegally? What about the millions of poor people starving in our own country ranging from the middle class to the homeless?

 
Old 05-13-2009, 12:10 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,085,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The drama is most on the pro-illegal side. Take a look at their arguments.
That's pretty debatable. Fear mongering is more on the side of anti-illegals.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 12:17 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,085,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
So what's your point? Despite the fact that they're criminals by default (illegal entry & overstaying a visa are crimes) they should be allowed to remain and break our laws just because many of them are from a poor countries? How are we supposed to know about their background? We just ASSUME there won't be many problems? If going by that logic, then how many problems are acceptable when committed by people who are not here legally?

Oh good. So, how about we invite hundreds of millions of poor people to pour into this country illegally? What about the millions of poor people starving in our own country ranging from the middle class to the homeless?
These are not assumptions. The facts are that the majority of illegals simply keep to themselves and work.

Nobody mentioned invitations, but rather a system that focuses on those here first and addresses a better way to legalize immigrants. One that reduces waste in spending and in time to become legal. One that is fair to the American people and those wanting to enter legally.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 12:22 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,819,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
That's pretty debatable. Fear mongering is more on the side of anti-illegals.

No it's not. The high drama is on the pro-illegal side.

Just the fact that you all claim that life in Mexico is so horrendous and that the citizens of that country will surely die a horrible death if repatriated to their own country shows to what extent you'll out-and-out lie.

If Mexicans are deported, most often the worst thing is they go back to the village or neighborhood they are from, back to the family and friends they had back home, including wives and children who are glad to see them.

Most illegals worked in Mexico before packing up and coming here illegally and they go back to the same line of work.

It's not a fate worse than hell or a Nazi concentration camp to live again in Mexico. The USA certainly will not collapse without dirt-cheap illegals and the greed of their employers. In reality, Mexico is not hell on earth no matter how you people try to portray it.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 12:22 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,085,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Americans found illegally in Mexico are sent back to the USA. There's no "human rights" about it at all.

In reality, Mexico is the 12th wealthiest nation in the world with nationalized health care, fine universities, many tuition-free for the citizens of that country. Mexico has a growing middle class and in fact any Mexican citizen can attend public schools, study hard, obtain job skills, delay the birth of children until after obtaining the education, work skills, jobs and then limit family size to what he/she can afford. The same traits that are needed to make it to middle class in the USA.
Number 12 is Austria...Mexico is 54 (below Botswana and above Libya). Per capita is a better measure than how big the economy is. To say that China is the 2nd richest nation in the world is absurd...it's the 2nd largest economy, but a very small per capita.

Internal and external corruption does not help the average Mexican. The reality is that Mexico's middle class is growing in sheer numbers but not in percent of the population.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 12:29 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,085,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
No it's not. The high drama is on the pro-illegal side.

Just the fact that you all claim that life in Mexico is so horrendous and that the citizens of that country will surely die a horrible death if repatriated to their own country shows to what extent you'll out-and-out lie.

If Mexicans are deported, most often the worst thing is they go back to the village or neighborhood they are from, back to the family and friends they had back home, including wives and children who are glad to see them.

Most illegals worked in Mexico before packing up and coming here illegally and they go back to the same line of work.

It's not a fate worse than hell or a Nazi concentration camp to live again in Mexico. The USA certainly will not collapse without dirt-cheap illegals and the greed of their employers. In reality, Mexico is not hell on earth no matter how you people try to portray it.
"Illegal Crime Wave Thread" "One Woman's Story of Multiculturalism" "Shut the border due to Swine Flu"

I'd say its debatable.

The majority have their wives and children here in the US. A large percent are mixed families (one generation of legal and one generation of illegals).

You're right, most Mexicans did work in Mexico. However, many left to the environmental catastrophe on the border, the lack of proper education, the poor working conditions in border factories (most of them are American owned). They wanted to escape third world exploitation. Some came legally...some did not. With that said, maybe we should address the reasons why they came here...and what should we do now they are here.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 12:31 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,819,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Number 12 is Austria...Mexico is 54 (below Botswana and above Libya). Per capita is a better measure than how big the economy is. To say that China is the 2nd richest nation in the world is absurd...it's the 2nd largest economy, but a very small per capita.

Internal and external corruption does not help the average Mexican. The reality is that Mexico's middle class is growing in sheer numbers but not in percent of the population.
What it takes to be middle class in Mexico: 1. finish at least a secondary level education. 2. finish a university education if possible -- not difficult since the government provides opportunities for that tuition free. 3. Delay the start of a family until after the education, job, and marriage. 4. Limit family size to what you can afford. 5. Work hard, save money, don't overspend.

What it takes to be middle class in the USA: Ditto.

Mexico: 13th highest nation in GDP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_GDP_(nominal)

What it takes to improve Mexico: working for meaningful reform, working and paying taxes in that country, building up the infrastructure and job creation. Leaving obviously does nothing, doesn't benefit those "left behind" in the least.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 12:35 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,819,682 times
Reputation: 22174
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
"Illegal Crime Wave Thread" "One Woman's Story of Multiculturalism" "Shut the border due to Swine Flu"

I'd say its debatable.

The majority have their wives and children here in the US. A large percent are mixed families (one generation of legal and one generation of illegals).

You're right, most Mexicans did work in Mexico. However, many left to the environmental catastrophe on the border, the lack of proper education, the poor working conditions in border factories (most of them are American owned). They wanted to escape third world exploitation. Some came legally...some did not. With that said, maybe we should address the reasons why they came here...and what should we do now they are here.
What we should do? Well the big exodus out doesn't accomplish anything for Mexico, doesn't build that country up at all, and does nothing for our own so we need to discourage it every way we can.

Cut off the welfare handouts which is the reason so many come here and why they immediately start having baby after baby when they can't afford them here without Medicaid and food stamps and WIC.

Over half of Mexican girls in the USA have at least one child before age 20 and many have several, virtually all of them single mothers. That's not about trying to make a better life, that's about accessing the welfare programs.

So cut off all welfare programs. Go after the employers of illegals with everything the government has. Prison, heavy fines. Close them down.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 12:40 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,819,682 times
Reputation: 22174
The other thing to do: Educate these people that the only way to get ahead in today's world is keep their kids in school -- in Mexico works just fine, delay childbirth and limit family size. Don't breed when you can't possibly feed your children. Improve the education in technology -- in Mexico and help Mexicans see that all prosperity need not come to a screeching halt at our southern border.

Cultural change -- because irresponsible reproduction is what creates poverty in today's world. Mexico is a rich nation with many natural resources, part of the same land mass as the USA and Canada and so doesn't have any good excuse for massive poverty. Massive poverty is very often the result of poor lifestyle choices.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 08:38 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,085,116 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The other thing to do: Educate these people that the only way to get ahead in today's world is keep their kids in school -- in Mexico works just fine, delay childbirth and limit family size. Don't breed when you can't possibly feed your children. Improve the education in technology -- in Mexico and help Mexicans see that all prosperity need not come to a screeching halt at our southern border.

Cultural change -- because irresponsible reproduction is what creates poverty in today's world. Mexico is a rich nation with many natural resources, part of the same land mass as the USA and Canada and so doesn't have any good excuse for massive poverty. Massive poverty is very often the result of poor lifestyle choices.
I think that there are other forces at work than "cultural changes" concerning poverty. Multinational companies tend to not concentrate their wealth in the countries they produce in. Rather, the majority of wealth repatriates itself to the country in which the company is based in (where all the CEOs and higher ups are).

There is also the theory of accumulated wealth. The US pretty much took a great deal of Mexico's wealth. That since grew.

So while countries like Veitnam and Honduras are able to produce many products, the majority of money is not seen in such nations for example. Their main utility is cheap labor.

Raw materials really mean nothing. Switzerland has few natural resources. South Africa has many (number one in the world for both gold and platinum). Again, it goes back to where wealth is going.

Simply blaming the third world for surviving is not a good tactic. Higher birth rates are essential in the third world. It's their form of social security. In the underclass, those with the most kids have better lives. In the middle and upper classes the opposite is true. This is because of the fact the in the lower classes, the kids represent earning potential...a net postive...but in the middle classes and upper classes (where stocks, savings, equity, annuities, life policies are used for retirment and estate planning) kids don't contribute at all to their parents retirement. Kids have less value (no farms to work on, no factories to work at...etc.).

We are a part of the problem in the US...it's not a great fact to admit, but it's true. Not us as individuals, but rather the system. Our mass consumer culture breeds unfair trade and a balance of wealth that is concentrated in the hands of the few.

Currently, a larger more sinister demographic shift is happening. The super rich are becoming even richer than the regular rich...meaning that wealth is becoming EVEN MORE concentrated. Not saying that we will end up as a third world country...but simply pointing out that there are other problems to worry about.
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