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Old 05-13-2009, 07:43 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
What we should do? Well the big exodus out doesn't accomplish anything for Mexico, doesn't build that country up at all, and does nothing for our own so we need to discourage it every way we can.

Cut off the welfare handouts which is the reason so many come here and why they immediately start having baby after baby when they can't afford them here without Medicaid and food stamps and WIC.

Over half of Mexican girls in the USA have at least one child before age 20 and many have several, virtually all of them single mothers. That's not about trying to make a better life, that's about accessing the welfare programs.

So cut off all welfare programs. Go after the employers of illegals with everything the government has. Prison, heavy fines. Close them down.
I don't think that they plan to be parents at a young age. We should have better sex education in schools, better access to contraceptives, and more on site baby sitting in schools.

Here's a thought...make welfare conditional on obtaining an education. Either finishing high school or obtaining a post secondary education. Reduced tuition can also provide an incentive (or grants and scholarships). Then, once they finish welfare can also take on a more job placement entity. This way, both legal and illegal residents can obtain a better future as well reducing dependence on welfare.

 
Old 05-13-2009, 07:51 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,044,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
There is also the theory of accumulated wealth. The US pretty much took a great deal of Mexico's wealth. That since grew.

Ok, I was with you up to this statement. Since about 1950 what did the US take from Mexico?
 
Old 05-13-2009, 08:02 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I don't think that they plan to be parents at a young age. We should have better sex education in schools, better access to contraceptives, and more on site baby sitting in schools.

Here's a thought...make welfare conditional on obtaining an education. Either finishing high school or obtaining a post secondary education. Reduced tuition can also provide an incentive (or grants and scholarships). Then, once they finish welfare can also take on a more job placement entity. This way, both legal and illegal residents can obtain a better future as well reducing dependence on welfare.

I would say make welfare conditional on obtaining permanent sterilization. The last thing a single mother of 16 years of age who speaks no English and has no job skills needs is more children.

But before that I would say no welfare handouts whatsoever to foreign parents of anchor babies they birthed here for that purpose. We're attracting far too many of the wrong type of immigrant with our many generous welfare programs. No foreign citizen should come here expecting completely free health care including maternity hospital care.

As far as illegals, it's time to quit rewarding those who choose to break the laws and that goes for the employers of illegals also. Leave the illegals illegal, that was their decision in the first place. Many packed up their bags intending to return home some day and we have to make that plan the reality. Even if you don't round them all up this minute, just leaving them illegal will make them easier to deport if they seek welfare handouts, fail to pay their hospital bills, are found committing other crimes.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 08:03 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Ok, I was with you up to this statement. Since about 1950 what did the US take from Mexico?
Accumulated wealth meaning the gains that were made in the 1800s lead to more wealth later on.

Here's an example. My great great grandfather steals $100 from your great great grandfather (half your GGGF's wealth) . My GGGF takes that the money to buy a piece of wood and an ax. Your's is now in need of money to survive. Mine creates furniture and sells it your GGGF. He and many other people buy the furniture. My GGGF makes more than $100, he makes $150. Okay his son takes the extra $50 to expand his enterprise into farming. Meanwhile, your family is doing a little better. My GGF asks your GGF to work on a farm. Sounds okay. You're being underpaid. He makes $300 off of your labor...you make $3. This snowballs with each generation. Your family never fully recoups the $100 because it grows and your family is now dependent on working for my family to survive.

This is pretty much the US and Mexico. Both had fairly equal wealth levels, then we took roughly half their land and wealth...in which in order to survive worked for us in our factories and farms.

So in 1950 we didn't "steal" from them, only had cheap labor based on the original accumulation of wealth.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 08:05 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I would say make welfare conditional on obtaining permanent sterilization. The last thing a single mother of 16 years of age who speaks no English and has no job skills needs is more children.

But before that I would say no welfare handouts whatsoever to foreign parents of anchor babies they birthed here for that purpose. We're attracting far too many of the wrong type of immigrant with our many generous welfare programs. No foreign citizen should come here expecting completely free health care including maternity hospital care.

As far as illegals, it's time to quit rewarding those who choose to break the laws and that goes for the employers of illegals also. Leave the illegals illegal, that was their decision in the first place. Many packed up their bags intending to return home some day and we have to make that plan the reality. Even if you don't round them all up this minute, just leaving them illegal will make them easier to deport if they seek welfare handouts, fail to pay their hospital bills, are found committing other crimes.
No permenant sterlization...that's a bad idea. I hope you were kidding. I mean unless you and your significant other decide to do the same (to use any gov't sponsored program).

Little dramatic don't you think?
 
Old 05-13-2009, 08:09 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
Reputation: 22158
We didn't "take" the land. Mexico after it's independence from Spain was very very poorly managed. You need to study some history. We didn't take Texas, the people of Texas fought for their independence from Mexico 24 years after the Mexicans fought for their independence from Spain. Mexico was then torn apart by Federalists versus Centralists. Mexican federalists fought along side English speaking settlers in Texas (invited in by the Spanish government), Santa Ana was a Centralist and the Spanish surnamed in the War for Texas Independence were federalists.

Mexico's poor performing government sold other territory -- Gadsen purchase, just as Louisiana was sold by France.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 08:11 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
No permenant sterlization...that's a bad idea. I hope you were kidding. I mean unless you and your significant other decide to do the same (to use any gov't sponsored program).

Little dramatic don't you think?
I actually don't believe illegals should receive any welfare handouts as a reward for giving birth here.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 08:44 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
We didn't "take" the land. Mexico after it's independence from Spain was very very poorly managed. You need to study some history. We didn't take Texas, the people of Texas fought for their independence from Mexico 24 years after the Mexicans fought for their independence from Spain. Mexico was then torn apart by Federalists versus Centralists. Mexican federalists fought along side English speaking settlers in Texas (invited in by the Spanish government), Santa Ana was a Centralist and the Spanish surnamed in the War for Texas Independence were federalists.

Mexico's poor performing government sold other territory -- Gadsen purchase, just as Louisiana was sold by France.
You are right, we didn't technically. We gave an ultimatum. We arrived into the country to via Veracruz to march to Mexico City. We had significant interest in CA (where rich Mexicans who were fed up with the current system were told that their land holdings would be honored if they joined the side of the Bear Flag Republic...it was never honored).

The Gadsen purchase was a stipulation a means to resolve the "disputed" area on the border.

The US intervention was essentially outright stealing. Instead of respecting already set boundaries, the US decided to "intervene" and obtain 55% of Mexico's land at a ridiculously low price.

So, you're right...we didn't outright steal their land. But we waged war and gave many ultimatums and marched to their capital. The Fall of Mexico City. Either sign the treaty or total annexation of Mexico.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 08:45 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I actually don't believe illegals should receive any welfare handouts as a reward for giving birth here.
What should be done with the billions they pay into taxes?
 
Old 05-13-2009, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
You are right, we didn't technically. We gave an ultimatum. We arrived into the country to via Veracruz to march to Mexico City. We had significant interest in CA (where rich Mexicans who were fed up with the current system were told that their land holdings would be honored if they joined the side of the Bear Flag Republic...it was never honored).

The Gadsen purchase was a stipulation a means to resolve the "disputed" area on the border.

The US intervention was essentially outright stealing. Instead of respecting already set boundaries, the US decided to "intervene" and obtain 55% of Mexico's land at a ridiculously low price.

So, you're right...we didn't outright steal their land. But we waged war and gave many ultimatums and marched to their capital. The Fall of Mexico City. Either sign the treaty or total annexation of Mexico.
Flip side:

Mexico was under French control in 1867 so what happened prior was moot.

Too; Guatemala broke free from Mexico yet the latter nation does not seem that angry about it.

Moreover; Mexico 'stole' land from Spain in 1821 yet where is the outrage?

For that matter; there sure seems to be little rage against the Spanish Hispanics for subjugating the Aztecs, etc.

Final point: the racism here in the in the USA against Indians/Mestizos essentially saved the rest of Mexico from being taken by the USA in 1848.
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