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Old 11-05-2010, 03:51 PM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,085,289 times
Reputation: 957

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I asked you this yesterday and you haven't replied yet. Please pick A or B.

So (A) are you saying they could obtain this visa in their home country and come here with it and stay in our country until a job is offered to them or that (B) a job has to be offered first before they can come with this visa to take the job?

If it is (A) you are proposing then how do they support themselves until they are offered a job using this visa? How do we keep track of those who don't renew it and yet remain in this country? 40% of illegals in our country are visa overstayers now.

That 40% number is used by everyone as fact. the number came from a 2006 PEW report that stated the number was 25-40% of all illegals were overstayers in 2006.

funny how that turn into 40% now.

Quote:
So clearly, the possible effects of either the economic downturn or increased enforcement did not have a substantial either Mexican immigrants or the estimated "25-40%" of the illegal population made up of visa overstayers. (p. 9 here)
The Pew Study on Illegal Immigration, Part VI: Why Did the Number of Illegal Immigrants Decline? | Center for Immigration Studies
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Old 11-05-2010, 04:21 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
That 40% number is used by everyone as fact. the number came from a 2006 PEW report that stated the number was 25-40% of all illegals were overstayers in 2006.

funny how that turn into 40% now.



The Pew Study on Illegal Immigration, Part VI: Why Did the Number of Illegal Immigrants Decline? | Center for Immigration Studies
Well if visa overstayers make up less than 40% of illegals then that means the bulk of illegals came here without any papers in the first place. That is even more alarming as far as I am concerned.
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:36 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,098,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneDoeAmerican View Post
More than likely they will collect and far more then they pay into the system. Since they are low wage earners with dependents, they pay very little into the system if any at all.
Which system are we discussing? Even illegals have to pay general sales taxes and are issued tax payer IDs if they don't have a social security number.

The point is, a market friendly work visa would make "gaming" our naturalization process less cost effective; since they could simply purchase a work visa (or pay a fine) and be legal to our laws as lawful participants in our markets.

We could solve our illegal problem by simply requiring a fee or a fine; since the only other other option would be deportation, it would be market friendly from inception.

Being able to purchase a work visa would allow more efficient foreign labor market participants, to participate more conveniently in US markets. Presumably, more, English speaking foreign labor may seek employment in the US instead of the current labor trend by less skilled foreign labor.
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:43 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,098,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I asked you this yesterday and you haven't replied yet. Please pick A or B.

So (A) are you saying they could obtain this visa in their home country and come here with it and stay in our country until a job is offered to them or that (B) a job has to be offered first before they can come with this visa to take the job?

If it is (A) you are proposing then how do they support themselves until they are offered a job using this visa? How do we keep track of those who don't renew it and yet remain in this country? 40% of illegals in our country are visa overstayers now.
The option is A. I am proposing that anyone who obtains a tourist visa can also apply for work authorization (for a small additional fee). Many may opt to plan a vacation and also obtain a work visa as a component of a tourist visa (i.e. a "tourist" visa with work authorization).

Quote:
In the US, tourism is either the first, second or third largest employer in 29 states, employing 7.3 million in 2004, to take care of 1.19 billion trips tourists took in the US in 2005.[22

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism..._United_States
Anyone here illegally now could simply be fined and issued a work visa; if they are willing to pay the fine and comply with any federal minimum standards for a work visa.

Most job seekers commuting to work in another State, usually make prior arrangements or make arraignments for getting to work in a timely manner.

With a market friendly work visa, illegals would have no market based incentive to remain in the black market.
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:51 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,098,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opyelie View Post
I don't see why "guest workers" should be allowed to bring their whole family with them anyway, as it's a TEMPORARY visa
A work visa could do just that, in a much more market friendly manner, as a matter of routine bureaucracy instead of perceived pandering to constituencies.

Anyone with a work visa would have to stand in line with everyone else for a permanent residency visa.
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Old 11-08-2010, 09:12 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
The option is A. I am proposing that anyone who obtains a tourist visa can also apply for work authorization (for a small additional fee). Many may opt to plan a vacation and also obtain a work visa as a component of a tourist visa (i.e. a "tourist" visa with work authorization).



Anyone here illegally now could simply be fined and issued a work visa; if they are willing to pay the fine and comply with any federal minimum standards for a work visa.

Most job seekers commuting to work in another State, usually make prior arrangements or make arraignments for getting to work in a timely manner.

With a market friendly work visa, illegals would have no market based incentive to remain in the black market.
So since your choice is (A) that they can purchase this visa in their home country and come here without a promised job, how do you propose they support themselves until they do? How do you propose we monitor these visa holders if they are here for any length of time, don't find a job and then don't renew their visa? We can't seem to monitor visa overstayers now.

Are we to be eternally "market friendly" and continue to issue these visas even with millions of Americans out of work and the economy in the pits? What about their healthcare while they are here and not working? Who is going to pay for that?

Are you proposing no limit on these visas? How do we control our population growth then and the ensuing social costs and the natural resource demands it will put on our country?
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Old 11-08-2010, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
The option is A. I am proposing that anyone who obtains a tourist visa can also apply for work authorization (for a small additional fee). Many may opt to plan a vacation and also obtain a work visa as a component of a tourist visa (i.e. a "tourist" visa with work authorization).



Anyone here illegally now could simply be fined and issued a work visa; if they are willing to pay the fine and comply with any federal minimum standards for a work visa.

Most job seekers commuting to work in another State, usually make prior arrangements or make arraignments for getting to work in a timely manner.

With a market friendly work visa, illegals would have no market based incentive to remain in the black market.
Shall we also offer ALL criminals such a generous reprieve? I’m sure most of our current prisoners, if given the option, would definitely prefer to pay a nominal fine as opposed to being punished for their crimes. Can your suggestions become more absurd?
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Old 11-08-2010, 11:46 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,098,330 times
Reputation: 479
We already do offer some criminals that option with a "fixit" ticket. A market friendly work visa would be analogous to that concept and would generate revenue from voluntary participation in US markets. Your special pleading is yours and you are welcome to it.

Some criminals are even discharged for not having broken a serious enough crime due to insufficient infrastructure to keep up with demand.
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
We already do offer some criminals that option with a "fixit" ticket. A market friendly work visa would be analogous to that concept and would generate revenue from voluntary participation in US markets. Your special pleading is yours and you are welcome to it.

Some criminals are even discharged for not having broken a serious enough crime due to insufficient infrastructure to keep up with demand.
I am not aware of any “fixit” ticket for tax evasion, ID theft, document forgery, rape, murder, pedophilia, or vehicular homicide. Contrary to pro-illegal propaganda, illegal aliens are not simply guilty of illegal entry or visa overstays. It requires multiple law violations to remain in this country illegally. Not to mention, the violent criminal element of the illegal alien population. Sorry, a fine will not suffice.

You have still not explained how these work visa recipients will survive in this country without employment.
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:58 PM
 
Location: deep in the south
233 posts, read 389,677 times
Reputation: 117
This poster won't answer that question directly, he dances around that issue by only repeating his "market friendly visa" chant over and over again. My feeling is that he would think it is "morally" acceptable for them to recieve all forms of social services available to help them survive when they find no work available. As to the remark about these people paying taxes, such as the general sales tax he listed, I would hasten a guess that any social services benefits they were able to help themselves too would be much higher indeed than any contribution they are making with said taxes. All in all what he proposes is just a way to be able to pick the American taxpayers pockets without having to worry that ICE will catch and try to deport them if they are illegal.
At this time I would have to say a loud NO to any of this, at least until we get rid of the illegals we have here now, there are too many hands already in our pockets! And if by any slim chance his plan should get any standing and come about it should also make sure these "market friendly" people are able to sustain themselves without any handouts for anything and should insure they have a return ticket to their homeland BEFORE they are ever permitted to enter the country. If they tried to apply for any benefits they should be deported home immediately without recourse or hearings, and they would have to sign a legally binding agreement before they left their home country.
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