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Old 11-08-2010, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,981,094 times
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Mollie, I was just reading a recently revived "dead" thread and it seems daniel has been pushing this particular barrow for at least 3 years, so I doubt he's about to "expand" on his (cough) brilliant market friendly work visa...........

A short list of "jobs Americans wont do"
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Old 11-08-2010, 10:27 PM
 
Location: deep in the south
233 posts, read 390,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opyelie View Post
Mollie, I was just reading a recently revived "dead" thread and it seems daniel has been pushing this particular barrow for at least 3 years, so I doubt he's about to "expand" on his (cough) brilliant market friendly work visa...........

A short list of "jobs Americans wont do"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the notation, you're absolutely right..........he's been spouting his "market friendly" visa solution for a L_O_N_G time now! Guess I am done trying to get a straight answer from him on anything anymore, he sings one note only! I'll stop wasting my time.........
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:09 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,107,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
So since your choice is (A) that they can purchase this visa in their home country and come here without a promised job, how do you propose they support themselves until they do? How do you propose we monitor these visa holders if they are here for any length of time, don't find a job and then don't renew their visa? We can't seem to monitor visa overstayers now.

Are we to be eternally "market friendly" and continue to issue these visas even with millions of Americans out of work and the economy in the pits? What about their healthcare while they are here and not working? Who is going to pay for that?

Are you proposing no limit on these visas? How do we control our population growth then and the ensuing social costs and the natural resource demands it will put on our country?
You may still be thinking a market friendly work visa is another form of naturalization instead of merely the legal right to participate in US markets.

There would not be much difference between a work visa and a tourist visa with work authorization, since essentially, it would be targeting foreign tourists who may want to do market research in our markets. The revenue captured through such a market friendly public policy scheme could lower our tax burden and other public and private sector costs. Unemployment compensation on the same at-will basis as employment relationships could be subsidized by foreign labor, and allow native US labor the opportunity to go to school, learn a new and more marketable vocation, or simply pursue Happiness via recourse to the economic Blessings of Liberty thereby enabled.

A market friendly work visa would discourage black market participation in favor of the convenience of legal participation in open markets; for the cost of a fee or a fine.

Since a work visa is not a form of naturalization, it would be scheduled to expire from inception, after a certain period of time. It is the responsibility of the visa holder to comply with those visa requirements; however, since the options would be either a moderate fee, a more expensive fine or deportation; it can be assumed that it will depend on any given immediate profit goal as to which option will provide the perceived, most marginal utility in any given situation. However, in most circumstances, paying a fine by complying with visa holder requirements or paying a more expensive fee would be the most likely outcome.

Since a work visa is not another form of naturalization, but merely the legal right to participate legally in US markets, not finding a job could trigger some visa criteria for holding a visa. However, consider that a person who has the legal right to participate in US markets also has valid forms of identification for that legal participation. For example, simply having a valid visa could render such a person ineligible for many social services that are granted to citizens and permanent residents by having a work visa taxpayer ID instead of social security number. Biometrics are on file and any use of any visa benefits would identify the participant. However, in my opinion, a market friendly would visa should include some form of insurance component to defray that cost to the taxpayer via federal standards (e.g. mandated forms of catastrophic and unemployment insurance that are included by purchasing a visa). One simple example could be a paid, return trip to country of origin.

Controlling population growth is beyond the scope of a market friendly work visa that can generate revenue from legal foreign labor participation in US markets.

Improving the efficiency of our economy can also improve the efficiency of resource extraction and allocation. Consider the analogy to the agriculture sector and US history. At one time up to twenty-five percent of the population was engaged in farming. With a more modern and efficient economy, around two percent of the population engages in farming.

Quote:
The beneficiaries of the subsidies have changed as agriculture in the United States has changed. In the 1930s, about 25% of the country's population resided on the nation's 6,000,000 small farms. By 1997, 157,000 large farms accounted for 72% of farm sales, with only 2% of the U.S. population residing on farms.

Source: Agricultural subsidy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Consider it an analogous goal of a market friendly labor subsidy (via unemployment compensation on the same at-will basis as employment relationships) for native US labor in order to become more competitive in global markets. It would be in keeping with the standing instructions left to us by our Founding Fathers.

Quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Last edited by danielpalos; 11-10-2010 at 10:35 AM..
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:15 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,107,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I am not aware of any “fixit” ticket for tax evasion, ID theft, document forgery, rape, murder, pedophilia, or vehicular homicide. Contrary to pro-illegal propaganda, illegal aliens are not simply guilty of illegal entry or visa overstays. It requires multiple law violations to remain in this country illegally. Not to mention, the violent criminal element of the illegal alien population. Sorry, a fine will not suffice.

You have still not explained how these work visa recipients will survive in this country without employment.
The fixit ticket would only be for the "crime" of "jaywalking" across a State line.

Quote:
As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.
- George Washington, 1st US President

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
- Thomas Jefferson, 3rd US President
You may still be missing the point about a work visa not being an elastic substitute for a permanent residency visa because it would expire automatically if not renewed, after a period of time.

How does your analogy work for tourists who may simply want to purchase the legal right to participate in US labor markets?

Quote:
In the US, tourism is either the first, second or third largest employer in 29 states, employing 7.3 million in 2004, to take care of 1.19 billion trips tourists took in the US in 2005.[22] The US outbound holiday market is sensitive in the short term, but possibly one of the most surprising results from the September 11, 2001 attacks was that by February 2002 it had bounced back for overseas travel, especially to destinations like New Zealand. This quick revival was generally quicker than many commentators had predicted only five months earlier.[23]

Source: Tourism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:17 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,107,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mollies mom View Post
This poster won't answer that question directly, he dances around that issue by only repeating his "market friendly visa" chant over and over again. My feeling is that he would think it is "morally" acceptable for them to recieve all forms of social services available to help them survive when they find no work available. As to the remark about these people paying taxes, such as the general sales tax he listed, I would hasten a guess that any social services benefits they were able to help themselves too would be much higher indeed than any contribution they are making with said taxes. All in all what he proposes is just a way to be able to pick the American taxpayers pockets without having to worry that ICE will catch and try to deport them if they are illegal.
At this time I would have to say a loud NO to any of this, at least until we get rid of the illegals we have here now, there are too many hands already in our pockets! And if by any slim chance his plan should get any standing and come about it should also make sure these "market friendly" people are able to sustain themselves without any handouts for anything and should insure they have a return ticket to their homeland BEFORE they are ever permitted to enter the country. If they tried to apply for any benefits they should be deported home immediately without recourse or hearings, and they would have to sign a legally binding agreement before they left their home country.
I have answered that question several times; but you keep ignoring it in favor of your obsolete rhetoric and propaganda.
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:19 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,107,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opyelie View Post
Mollie, I was just reading a recently revived "dead" thread and it seems daniel has been pushing this particular barrow for at least 3 years, so I doubt he's about to "expand" on his (cough) brilliant market friendly work visa...........

A short list of "jobs Americans wont do"
I was fleshing out a general concept. Simplicity and revenue generation, and reducing public and private sector costs is the goal. You are welcome to help me discover any flaws in my line of reasoning.
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:50 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,180,215 times
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I never asked if this so-called "market friendly" visa included eventual naturalization so why would you claim that is what I thought? You still haven't answered my questions below.

So since your choice is (A) that they can purchase this visa in their home country and come here without a promised job, how do you propose they support themselves until they do? How do you propose we monitor these visa holders if they are here for any length of time, don't find a job and then don't renew their visa? We can't seem to monitor visa overstayers now.

Are we to be eternally "market friendly" and continue to issue these visas even with millions of Americans out of work and the economy in the pits? What about their healthcare while they are here and not working? Who is going to pay for that?

Are you proposing no limit on these visas? How do we control our population growth then and the ensuing social costs and the natural resource demands it will put on our country?
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:00 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,180,215 times
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What is going to stop these visa holders from working cheaper and thereby undercutting Americans for the same job as the illegals are doing now? What makes you think that native US labor wants to go to school and learn a new vocation? Maybe they like the vocation that they have chosen already. Pursuit of happiness? How does one do that without a job that was taken by a foreinger? No way should a foreigner hold some kind of work visa and come here without a promised job already. That is just plain insane!

As for generating revenue, wouldn't an American on that same job be doing the same thing?
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:50 PM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,107,427 times
Reputation: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I never asked if this so-called "market friendly" visa included eventual naturalization so why would you claim that is what I thought? You still haven't answered my questions below.

So since your choice is (A) that they can purchase this visa in their home country and come here without a promised job, how do you propose they support themselves until they do? How do you propose we monitor these visa holders if they are here for any length of time, don't find a job and then don't renew their visa? We can't seem to monitor visa overstayers now.

Are we to be eternally "market friendly" and continue to issue these visas even with millions of Americans out of work and the economy in the pits? What about their healthcare while they are here and not working? Who is going to pay for that?

Are you proposing no limit on these visas? How do we control our population growth then and the ensuing social costs and the natural resource demands it will put on our country?
Since a work visa is not a form of naturalization, it would be scheduled to expire from inception, after a certain period of time. It is the responsibility of the visa holder to comply with those visa requirements; however, since the options would be either a moderate fee, a more expensive fine or deportation; it can be assumed that it will depend on any given immediate profit goal as to which option will provide the perceived, most marginal utility in any given situation. However, in most circumstances, paying a fine by complying with visa holder requirements or paying a more expensive fee would be the most likely outcome.

Why do you believe that would not be the case?
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:56 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,180,215 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
Since a work visa is not a form of naturalization, it would be scheduled to expire from inception, after a certain period of time. It is the responsibility of the visa holder to comply with those visa requirements; however, since the options would be either a moderate fee, a more expensive fine or deportation; it can be assumed that it will depend on any given immediate profit goal as to which option will provide the perceived, most marginal utility in any given situation. However, in most circumstances, paying a fine by complying with visa holder requirements or paying a more expensive fee would be the most likely outcome.

Why do you believe that would not be the case?
Why didn't you address the rest of my comments in my post? And If they aren't working then how can they afford to pay a fine or to renew their visa? You actually think that our government is going to monitor this whole fiasco and make sure they renew their visas and if not find them and deport them? lol. They don't do it now!

Again, why should they be allowed to come here with this visa unless they have been promised a job? How do they support themself while waiting for a job?
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