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Old 03-09-2010, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,156 posts, read 3,260,329 times
Reputation: 646

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A few corrections I needed to make...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanQuest View Post
America needs to find away to better the life of it's current citizens without the need to rely on the poor and desperate. I imagine that for every middle-class level legal immigrant that comes here, we need 3 illegals to support their consumption needs. It is this flawed system that has us in the quandry we are in.

The wealthy believe this cycle of upward mobility is a good thing for the country as a whole. As we Americans get richer, we will bring in more poor people to do the undesirable jobs and then the children of those poor immigrants will be the next wave to enter the middle class. Thus the cycle begins again, but with each new round, a larger number of poor immigrants must come in to support an ever increasing population.

This supposed meritotric gospel is their moral trump card in condoning their ignorance of the wishes of most regular, and to them, unenlightened American citizens. With this trump card and their insatiable greed, we have no chance. They control the media, government and the money. All we have is the vote, though we seem to get some sort of temporary amnesia when we go to exercise this power. That's if we go at all.

Now for the incoveniant reality of modern times. Many of the interests these elites hold dear to their hearts and wallets are starting to conflict with each other. Population growth and the environment. An educated and internet empowered populace colliding with their need to gain more power through war and ponzi schemes. Support of a society built on fossil fuels and growing population with that exact growing population depleting the volume of fossil fuels at a rate they probably did not fathom or rightly prepare for. Their need for greed has caused them to back away from the model of spreading democracy, though that practice is backfiring with these upcoming and undemocratic nations not reliably staying safely under their thumb as they arrogantly assumed.

Sadly, you really don't hear of many rich people who are against illegal immigration. They don't have to directly deal with it's consequences. I wonder if regular Joe's like ourselves would become rich, would we care about keeping illegals out? I wonder if I was sitting in St. Tropez in a speedo, if I would give a crap about Mexican's in Kansas. Especially if my $$$ was somehow tied to them being there. With our society based on this infinite growth model, you can forget the wealthy choosing to be on the right side. As far as their competing interests, I suppose more population, thus more $$$$ will trump the environment and social stability(notice how the global warming arguement is suddenly fallen a bit to the wayside). I so hope Obama raises taxes on the wealthy. I'll bet you if that where to happen the Malthusian arguement would be back in fashion before you can say "Bailout".

If anyone has any ideas on a way out of this quandry, I have wide open ears/eyes.
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Old 03-11-2010, 01:36 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,081,741 times
Reputation: 822
Can we stop with the neo-Malthusian arguments superimposed onto economics? I mean things like this have been dis-proven.
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Old 03-11-2010, 09:06 AM
 
264 posts, read 390,523 times
Reputation: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanQuest View Post
America needs to find away to better the life of it's current citizens without the need to rely on the poor and desperate. I imagine that for every middle-class level legal immigrant that comes here, we need 3 illegals to support their consumption needs. It is this flawed system that has us in the quandry we are in.

The wealthy believe this cycle of upward mobility is a good thing for the country as a whole. As we Americans get richer, we will bring in more poor people to do the undesirable jobs and then children of those poor immigrants will be the next wave to enter the middle class. Thus the cycle begins again, but with each new round, a larger number of poor immigrants must come in to support an ever increasing population.

This is their moral trump card in condoning their ignorance of the wishes of most regular, unenlightened American citizens. With this trump card and their insatiable greed, we have no chance. They control the media, government and the money. All we have is the vote, though we seem get some sort of temporary amnesia we go to exercise this power. That's if we go at all.

Now for the incoveniant reality of modern times. Many of the interests these elites hold dear to their hearts and wallets are starting to conflict with each other. Population growth and the environment. An educated and internet empowered populace colliding with their need to gain more power through war
ponzi schemes. Support of a society built on fossil fuels and growing population with that exact growing population depleting the volume of fossil fuels at a rate they probably did not fathom or rightly prepare for. Their need for greed has caused them to back away from the model of spreading democracy, though that practice is backfiring with these upcoming nations not reliably staying safely under their thumb as they arrogantly assumed.

Sadly, you really don't hear of many rich people who are against illegal immigration. They don't have to directly deal with it's consequences. I wonder if regular Joe's like ourselves would become rich, would we care about keeping illegals out? I wonder if I was sitting in St. Tropez in a speedo if I would give a crap about Mexican's in Kansas. Especially if my $$$ was somehow tied to them being there. With our society based on this infinite growth model, you can forget the wealthy choosing to be on the right side. As for as their competing interests, I suppose more population, thus more $$$$ will trump the environment and social stability(notice how the global warming arguement is suddenly fallen a bit to the wayside). I so hope Obama raises taxes on the wealthy. I'll bet you if that where to happen the Malthusian arguement would be back in fashion before you can say "Bailout".

If anyone have any ideas on a way out of this quandry, I would be open ears/eyes.
Absolutely true.

With an excess of 10% unemployment nationwide and stunted infrastructure growth, America DOES NOT need an emerging "slave class" take over its unskilled labor market.
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,156 posts, read 3,260,329 times
Reputation: 646
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Can we stop with the neo-Malthusian arguments superimposed onto economics? I mean things like this have been dis-proven.
Huh....
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Old 03-11-2010, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,136 posts, read 9,219,999 times
Reputation: 8991
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanQuest View Post
If anyone have any ideas on a way out of this quandry, I would be open ears/eyes.
Hypothetically speaking, if citizenship and socialist insecurity were voluntary, and American nationals / free inhabitants were sovereign, no one would bother to worry about "anchor babies".

Why?
Because 99% of Americans would not have "volunteered" to be persons liable.
[] No "voluntary" socialist taxes (FICA, etc)
[] No "voluntary" civic duties (conscription, jury duty, etc)
[] No "consent" to be governed

Uh oh... what would government do, without millions to "govern" and their wealth to squander?

Of course, we're speaking hypothetically...
There must be a law that imposes involuntary servitude at birth. There must be a law compelling all Americans to enroll into FICA / Social Security before they can work in their own country.
But I haven't found it yet...
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,156 posts, read 3,260,329 times
Reputation: 646
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Can we stop with the neo-Malthusian arguments superimposed onto economics? I mean things like this have been dis-proven.
I guess that's why the price of everything has gone up.
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:22 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,823 posts, read 30,091,418 times
Reputation: 17698
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanQuest View Post
I guess that's why the price of everything has gone up.
If these "Illegals" are such a great value to a Society why aren't we fighting other Countries and Govts for them? Supply and demand right? If there was such a great demand we'd be bringing in poor Africans that would work for even less then the current ones.
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Old 03-14-2010, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,156 posts, read 3,260,329 times
Reputation: 646
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
If these "Illegals" are such a great value to a Society why aren't we fighting other Countries and Govts for them? Supply and demand right? If there was such a great demand we'd be bringing in poor Africans that would work for even less then the current ones.
This country? Bringing in hordes of Africans. There seem to be masses of so called "birthers" questioning President Obama's legal birthright here in the United States. Why is that? Because he is our first black President. Plain and simple. Think about it. Many in this country can go after the President of the United States over the birthright issue with a vengeance, but we are spineless when it comes to anchor babies of Illegal Aliens who jumped the border and entered our country nefariously. Keep dreamin' with bringin in loads of Africans here. Anyway, I can't even fathom the moral implications of such a thing, considering the circumstances in which the first big wave of Africans where brought here.

My point of things costing more, has more to do with the fact that despite all this cheap labor we have here, things are probably not much more in price then they would be, if we didn't have the illegals. There is a threshold of affordability in this country. You can price lettuce at $30 a head. But who will buy it. If you think we would, then all I have to point out is the 10's of thousands of American seniors trekking across borders to find cheaper medications. We pay higher medication prices by laws our greedy politicians crammed down our throats. I wonder if they would have the cojones to try that with clothes and/or food. It wouldn't happen. Therefore, the segment of the population that would take the biggest hit in the pocket-book are the wealthy and if the wealthy hurt, that means less political contributions to the politicions. Starting to get the drift. Therefore, with the kicking out of illegals, one has to confront the problem of dealing with a large, angry, resenful and unemployed youth population. What to do? Call back the Malthusian arguement and start sterilizing women in the third world on a massive scale. This is what the wealthy would do. Although they would masquerade it as helping women achieve self-empowerment or something like that. I personally believe we must attempt to drastically reduce the birth rate in third world countries. In this case however, the means the elites would take would definitely not justify the ends.

It's sucks that no matter what way this goes, alot of people will have to suffer. It is only the elites who deserve to bear all the blame for this flawed system.
But their rich, so who gives a damn.....

Last edited by UrbanQuest; 03-14-2010 at 09:57 PM..
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:45 PM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,089,772 times
Reputation: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanQuest View Post
This country? Bringing in hordes of Africans. There seem to be masses of so called "birthers" questioning President Obama's legal birthright here in the United States. Why is that? Because he is our first black President. Plain and simple. Think about it. Many in this country can go after the President of the United States over the birthright issue with a vengeance, but we are spineless when it comes to anchor babies of Illegal Aliens who jumped the border and entered our country nefariously. Keep dreamin' with bringin in loads of Africans here. Anyway, I can't even fathom the moral implications of such a thing, considering the circumstances in which the first big wave of Africans where brought here.

My point of things costing more, has more to do with the fact that despite all this cheap labor we have here, things are probably not much more in price then they would be, if we didn't have the illegals. There is a threshold of affordability in this country. You can price lettuce at $30 a head. But who will buy it. If you think we would, then all I have to point out is the 10's of thousands of American seniors trekking across borders to find cheaper medications. We pay higher medication prices by laws our greedy politicians crammed down our throats. I wonder if they would have the cojones to try that with clothes and/or food. It wouldn't happen. Therefore, the segment of the population that would take the biggest hit in the pocket-book are the wealthy and if the wealthy hurt, that means less political contributions to the politicions. Starting to get the drift. Therefore, with the kicking out of illegals, one has to confront the problem of dealing with a large, angry, resenful and unemployed youth population. What to do? Call back the Malthusian arguement and start sterilizing women in the third world on a massive scale. This is what the wealthy would do. Although they would masquerade it as helping women achieve self-empowerment or something like that. I personally believe we must attempt to drastically reduce the birth rate in third world countries. In this case however, the means the elites would take would definitely not justify the ends.

It's sucks that no matter what way this goes, alot of people will have to suffer. It is only the elites who deserve to bear all the blame for this flawed system.
But their rich, so who gives a damn.....
Your right on many counts, except the engineering of foriegn peoples...Why not ask the rich to pay a farer share of the tax burden. Why is there such a fear of asking the rich to pay. Distribution of weatlth, the rich have no problem in distribution of the wealth of the middle class. Its the Middle Class, the Dwindling Middle class, that is picking up tab for the Failure of Banks, Car Companies, Investment Firms...all the while the richest Amricans preach the Capitialist system while the enjoy the fruits of our labor.

Illegal Immimagration and the Welfare system has been the collision of two perfect storms that is devastating The US...all done with the OK of Politicans and the Rich in America...With the middle class again picking up the tab.

You want real, swift, and long term solutions to Immigration Reform...Start making the Rich to pay increase Taxes to cover the Sevices used by illegal aliens. Keep them paying and increase their Tax burden for every new immigration solution inacted by Congress.

Then and only then will the incentive for change reach the Members in Congress.
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Old 04-28-2010, 06:17 PM
 
234 posts, read 202,729 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
UMMMM

The social service drain tied to the lat/lon of having your child hasn't been around since the grand opening of Ellis Island.This is a more recent phenom. You are a tax payer (maybe not) so I would think those huge numbers would bother you? Of course many using these people as near slave labor would beg to differ as they are benefiting from the tax payer subsidized workers.

$346 billion annually? Ya, that's something to be positive about, positively pissed!
Wow you must be very rich to act like the entire $346 billion all came out of your wallet.

Has it ever occurred to you that millions of taxpaying Americans are not pissed off about this.

Certainly not I and I paid quite a chunk of change to the Feds this year.

Being an American cost money, lots of money.

So you're helping out a bunch of future Americans, you should be proud of yourself not pissed.
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