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Old 05-23-2009, 08:37 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822

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Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
OK. The US govt. makes it mandatory to offer free financial & social services to all illegals. Soon afterwards thousands, if not millions, of poor illegal Mexicans & Central Americans start streaming northward across the border illegally to take advantage of the freebies. Is that acceptable to you?

BTW, how can you compare denying govt. services to illegals to an apartheid system? The South African govt. isn't/wasn't in any way obligated to subsidize illegals from its northern neighbors.
1). I'm talking specifically about those that are already here. They live here, they work here, they go to school here, they shop here. Whether or not we like it, they are a part of our economic landscape.

2). The apartheid system created an upper class and a lower class. This was done by the distribution of resources and services. Thus, the same will occur in the US...two classes. This was very detrimental to the economy. In CA, with a higher percentage of illegal immigrants than most states, the effects will be more pronounced. We are starting to see the effects of this. Los Angeles will resemble more like Johannesburg if we don't start doing something about education reform for the poor and illegal residents.

 
Old 05-23-2009, 08:53 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,044,409 times
Reputation: 17688
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
1). I'm talking specifically about those that are already here. They live here, they work here, they go to school here, they shop here. Whether or not we like it, they are a part of our economic landscape.

2). The apartheid system created an upper class and a lower class. This was done by the distribution of resources and services. Thus, the same will occur in the US...two classes. This was very detrimental to the economy. In CA, with a higher percentage of illegal immigrants than most states, the effects will be more pronounced. We are starting to see the effects of this. Los Angeles will resemble more like Johannesburg if we don't start doing something about education reform for the poor and illegal residents.
So iyo you think we tax payers need to shovel even more more towards the invaders than we already are? We tax the middle class even more and shrink it by default? That's no win in my book.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
1). I'm talking specifically about those that are already here. They live here, they work here, they go to school here, they shop here. Whether or not we like it, they are a part of our economic landscape.

2). The apartheid system created an upper class and a lower class. This was done by the distribution of resources and services. Thus, the same will occur in the US...two classes. This was very detrimental to the economy. In CA, with a higher percentage of illegal immigrants than most states, the effects will be more pronounced. We are starting to see the effects of this. Los Angeles will resemble more like Johannesburg if we don't start doing something about education reform for the poor and illegal residents.
Do us a favor: please quit associating Apartheid/Jim Crow with our efforts to deport people who came here illegally on their own free will.

That is an insult to the descendants of the Americans slaves as well as Black/brown South Africans (some of whom were indigenous)-------------at best.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 09:33 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
So iyo you think we tax payers need to shovel even more more towards the invaders than we already are? We tax the middle class even more and shrink it by default? That's no win in my book.
Not a 'win', exactly..think of it as more of an 'opportunity'.....and a chance to see changes take place in our society. Unlimited illegal immigration and its attendant social 'sea changes' will produce a 'new' sort of society....and 'new' is always better than 'old'....right? And if not 'better', it's at LEAST bound to exciting...even 'interesting'....
 
Old 05-23-2009, 10:32 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Do us a favor: please quit associating Apartheid/Jim Crow with our efforts to deport people who came here illegally on their own free will.

That is an insult to the descendants of the Americans slaves as well as Black/brown South Africans (some of whom were indigenous)-------------at best.
No. I have seen the horrors of what happens when a perpetual underclass is created. This is a similar problem. An underclass is being created. Instead of clutching to flags and what not...I think its time to fix the problem. Deportation is not fixing the problem...they will come back and we end up shoveling MORE money.

Look, you've talked quite a bit of "racial" issues that you know nothing about. A lot of people let it go. When I bring up a valid point of an underclass (BTW, more of an economic issue), at least address the issue and not skirt it.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
1). I'm talking specifically about those that are already here. They live here, they work here, they go to school here, they shop here. Whether or not we like it, they are a part of our economic landscape.

2). The apartheid system created an upper class and a lower class. This was done by the distribution of resources and services. Thus, the same will occur in the US...two classes. This was very detrimental to the economy. In CA, with a higher percentage of illegal immigrants than most states, the effects will be more pronounced. We are starting to see the effects of this. Los Angeles will resemble more like Johannesburg if we don't start doing something about education reform for the poor and illegal residents.
What do you think massive illegal immigration is doing? Illegal aliens are displacing middle-class Americans. Prior to this invasion, construction was a skilled-labor industry, and workers could comfortably support their families. Now, citizens have been replaced by cheap unskilled labor, and the wages have plummeted. Other industries are following suit. Soon, there will be no middle-class; just the rich and the poor. Itís sad you donít realize what you are supporting.

Itís funny you should mention the condition of CA. This is a direct result of illegal immigration, as you have noted. Yet, you had no idea what you were actually confirming.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 10:49 AM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,897,260 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
What do you think massive illegal immigration is doing? Illegal aliens are displacing middle-class Americans. Prior to this invasion, construction was a skilled-labor industry, and workers could comfortably support their families. Now, citizens have been replaced by cheap unskilled labor, and the wages have plummeted. Other industries are following suit. Soon, there will be no middle-class; just the rich and the poor. It’s sad you don’t realize what you are supporting.

It’s funny you should mention the condition of CA. This is a direct result of illegal immigration, as you have noted. Yet, you had no idea what you were actually confirming.
Those who condone this invasion have selfish motives for doing so. They are people who will benefit from it in some shape form or fashion. Be they: corporate masters, politicians, hispanic citizens with illegal alien friends and family members, ethnocentric racist groups, DREAMies or anchor babies. They know exactly who they are supporting. As long as they get what they want, their attitude is if it hurts or destroys America so be it.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 10:55 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
So iyo you think we tax payers need to shovel even more more towards the invaders than we already are? We tax the middle class even more and shrink it by default? That's no win in my book.
First off, did I mention paying more taxes? There might be a slight increase...but if we do eliminate the Bush tax breaks, go after off shore accounts, have responsible fiscal accountability, increase taxes for the top 1% (those making 500k or more), finally end the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, then we should put an emphasis on schools, roads, and hospitals.

We spend 5.7% of our GDP on education (37th in the world), 15% GDP on healthcare (1 in the world...except with the Marshall Islands, but they are associated with the US). We spend the by and far the most out of any country on our military (44% of the world's total military spending comes from US). We can cut the waste in healthcare, decrease the military spending and place it in education. Also, we can use a resource that the corporate world uses as "free" labor...college interns. College interns teaching English for credit, being substitute teachers for credit, being after school coordinators for credit. That would not only boost our educational system, but also save A LOT of money.

The middle class is shrinking because of a lack of interest in social reform. I'm not talking about a communist revolution or anything remotely close, but rather simple, basic things. Healthcare, education, and blue collar jobs. These things are the things that made America great. These are the same things that are being taken away. Not because of illegal immigrants, no. But rather because of mismanagement, corruption, and wars that have drained our coffers.

1AngeryTaxPayer...think about it this way, it costs more money to NOT educate those already here, than it does TO educate those that are here (specifically the children). If the children attain the average education of a CA resident, they are less likely to be on any social services. Thus, the benefits outweigh the costs.

With that said, I don't know how we can easily, cheaply, and fairly regulate immigration. We could have an easier method of sponsorship, faster visa turn around, faster citizenship turn around, more cooperation with Mexico concerning this issue (since they contribute 56% of all illegal immigrants). Conversely, extreme fines and penalties of companies that hire illegals (and they could recoup some penalties if they do enroll in the proper channels and also do some community service deeds, a thought?).
 
Old 05-23-2009, 11:10 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
What do you think massive illegal immigration is doing? Illegal aliens are displacing middle-class Americans. Prior to this invasion, construction was a skilled-labor industry, and workers could comfortably support their families. Now, citizens have been replaced by cheap unskilled labor, and the wages have plummeted. Other industries are following suit. Soon, there will be no middle-class; just the rich and the poor. Itís sad you donít realize what you are supporting.

Itís funny you should mention the condition of CA. This is a direct result of illegal immigration, as you have noted. Yet, you had no idea what you were actually confirming.
Middle Class Americans are displacing themselves. They moved due to the high cost of living...which was caused by easy credit, speculation, and low interest rates. Construction is still a skilled-labor industry. The average construction worker makes about 40k a year. Growing up in the IE, that's the largest industry...an I can attest to the fact that most jobs were making about 40k (some higher, some slightly lower). About half of my parent's neighborhood was employed in construction and auxiliary occupations (painter, plumber, electrician, etc). Again, the average family in CA makes between 60-70K a year.

However, it is at the lower end of the construction jobs that wage depression occurs.

It is a direct result of lack of funding to poor school districts. It is a direct result of a severe lack of affordable housing units...it is a direct result of lack of money management. See, the way I see it, illegal immigration is not the problem, but rather our priorities.

Studies have shown that mixed income neighborhoods will produce better schools. Yet, in CA...we are seperating ourselves and resources are being polarized. Why? A good portion is due to the attitude expressed in the OP. Hispanics this, gangs that, Blacks this, poor people that. Our distribution of resources are actually diminishing as well. A recent study showed how in the US, the top .5% are significantly more richer than the top 1% (the gap increased at the high end). The average CEO in the 1970s made 4 to 5 times more than the average worker...now it significantly more (10 I believe...I'd have to double check the numbers).

During times of high immigration, we should put resources in investing in our poor. This includes illegal immigrants. But, those in charge (and with money) create a group of people to wave flags and not see that systematically your dollars are lining their pockets. Instead of fighting for fair wages for all, you fight for a wall. Instead of fighting for more education spending, you fight for deportation. Instead for fighting for things that will benefit not only illegal immigrants, but also middle class Americans, you fight to segregate. This creates a means to hire cheap labor. Illegal immigrants then work outside of the system. Because you don't want them in the system. Then you complain when they do work outside of the system. They are already here...let's do something to integrate them. That will protect our assets and theirs as well.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Texas
470 posts, read 508,193 times
Reputation: 135
that1guy, why are we sovereign? Do you have a clue? You try to use figures on CEOs and Corporate America to justify amnesty and higher spending on illegals? It may have won ONE election, but telling people, "we will make the evil rich pay for it all!" wont always work.

You have basically told us that when we are being raped and beaten that the the only way to help is to not fight back, but rather to hike up our collective skirts, grab our ankles, and say give me more? I guess maybe that way we will just be raped and NOT beaten also?

I think I choose to fight. Build the wall, repeal the immigration acts of 1965, reset national quotas, limits ALL social program to natives only. That would be money very well spent.
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