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Old 05-23-2009, 02:45 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,628,336 times
Reputation: 2983

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Ditto!
Got to say, there are some pretty 'telling' points here...(I'm SURE we'll hear a long rebuttal..I'm only saying that any such rebuttal will have to go WAY out on a limb to refute nightbird's observations)....

 
Old 05-23-2009, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Texas
470 posts, read 508,604 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Got to say, there are some pretty 'telling' points here...(I'm SURE we'll hear a long rebuttal..I'm only saying that any such rebuttal will have to go WAY out on a limb to refute nightbird's observations)....
But you know they will do it anyway.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,658,378 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
No. I have seen the horrors of what happens when a perpetual underclass is created. This is a similar problem. An underclass is being created. Instead of clutching to flags and what not...I think its time to fix the problem. Deportation is not fixing the problem...they will come back and we end up shoveling MORE money.

Look, you've talked quite a bit of "racial" issues that you know nothing about. A lot of people let it go. When I bring up a valid point of an underclass (BTW, more of an economic issue), at least address the issue and not skirt it.
If said 'underclass' are here illegally begin with------------they have the same rights as any other group of lawbreakers.

Read that they need to vamoose or else.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,658,378 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
Bravo, well stated!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Ditto!
Bingo!

Just that common sense ain't
 
Old 05-23-2009, 06:03 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,083,470 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
And I will continue to be one to talk as long as you and your ilk are running your mouths in support of legalizing said fresh batch of millions of illegal aliens. Guess what? there isn't a thing you can do about it.
That's fine, it's a free country.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 06:04 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,083,470 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
If said 'underclass' are here illegally begin with------------they have the same rights as any other group of lawbreakers.

Read that they need to vamoose or else.
They live here though. It's not as if they are not integrated in our society. See, the distinction of "illegal" really does not change the fact that they are already here.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,828,771 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
They live here though. It's not as if they are not integrated in our society. See, the distinction of "illegal" really does not change the fact that they are already here.
If you came home and discovered a family had moved into your house uninvited, what would you do? Would you embrace them, since they’re already there, or would you call the cops and have them removed?

And before you begin to offer us a treatise comparing a house to a country, we already know they are technically not the same. However, the USA is our home, and we have a right to determine who should and should not gain access.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 06:26 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,906,149 times
Reputation: 1094
Mexico doesn't even want mexicans to come back, yet we're expected to welcome the bottle of their barrel with open arms:

Quote:
Legislators from Mexican State Angry at Influx of...Mexicans

Can you believe the nerve of these people? Nine state legislators from the Mexican state of Sonora traveled to Tucson to complain about Arizona's new employer crackdown on illegals from Mexico. It seems many Mexican illegals are now returning to their hometowns and the officials in the Sonora state government are ticked:
A delegation of nine state legislators from Sonora was in Tucson on Tuesday to say Arizona's new employer sanctions law will have a devastating effect on the Mexican state. At a news conference, the legislators said Sonora - Arizona's southern neighbor, made up of mostly small towns - cannot handle the demand for housing, jobs and schools it will face as illegal Mexican workers here return to their hometowns without jobs or money.
The law, which took effect Jan.1, punishes employers who knowingly hire individuals who don't have valid legal documents to work in the United States. Penalties include suspension or loss of a business license.
They're pissed off because their own citizens are returning to their hometowns, placing a huge burden on their state government. This lady has some serious balls:
They want to tell them how the law will affect Mexican families on both sides of the border "How can they pass a law like this?" asked Mexican Rep. Leticia Amparano Gamez, who represents Nogales.
"There is not one person living in Sonora who does not have a friend or relative working in Arizona," she said in Spanish.
"Mexico is not prepared for this, for the tremendous problems" it will face as more and more Mexicans working in Arizona and sending money to their families return to hometowns in Sonora without jobs, she said.
"We are one family, socially and economically," she said of the people of Sonora and Arizona.

Legislators from Mexican State Angry at Influx of...Mexicans (Wizbang)

 
Old 05-23-2009, 06:39 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,083,470 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
It is true that people move from California for economic reasons. But that is only ONE of them, and without other really compelling ones they would not if they like what they live in. Especially now when they can look at the chance to buy a house at a reasonable price.

The LA Times did a random sampling. 94% of those people cited cost of housing as the number 1 reason for leaving the state of CA. Why else would they move to AZ, a state with also a high immigrant population.

People are leaving because of the society. They have kids and don't want to raise them here. They don't like the grafetti and atmosphere. They want to get away from hearing/seeing Spanish everwhere.

Graffiti and atmosphere? Again the vast majority of CA cities are at or below the national average on crime. Spanish everywhere? Look, even in Santa Ana (the most Hispanic large city in America) you will be okay if you speak English. Again, the vast majority of people speak English as a first language in CA. 28.1% of Californians spoke Spanish at home as a primary language. 56% spoke English only at home. The majority of the 28.1% spoke English as well. You can speak English in CA and still be fine.

This IS a big factor. The hispanic/immigrant culture is very closed in. They don't want to be a part of our society and don't want anything to do with anyone else. My ex neighbor who after ALL that time couldn't say the fence was on fire... that is totally inexcusable. The states should not accomidate people by printing things in other languages, especially double printing EVERYTHING in spanish. If I went to Mexico I would be expected to learn the language. Why should there be any different standard here? If you need to be able to read a document, learn the language its printed in. If you don't want to bother go HOME.

If this were the case, why is that Spanish usage decreases generation after generation? It's due to assimilation. Many people in Mexico speak English only. I agree that they should learn English, however. With that said, there should be a cheap method in which to help them. It does take time to learn a new language. We should continue printing things in multiple languages so that the system can accommodate them as they learn English.

Maybe where you live has no gang activity. Where I live now doesn't either. But MOST of southern California has those little squggles everywhere which claim territory. The gangs may not have anything to do with you but they are there. The druggies are all over the place. If you don't have any of that then either you live in a small town or a very expensive area which gates itself in. But that is NOT what the reality is for most people.

Most of SoCal doesn't. Most of SoCal is average in terms of gang activity and crime. Most of SoCal is not the extremes of Compton or Beverly Hills. Single family homes in suburbs are the norm. Think about it this way, how can a state with one of the most affluent, educated populations by PERCENTAGE of people living here all live in crime infested areas? It doesn't make sense. The numbers even reflect that. I live in the most average part of SoCal. It's boring, hot, bland. I posted a pic in which Macmeal replied that most of SoCal is inihibated. True, but most of where people live are in suburban communities...not ghettos.

I'm sure your parents speaking French with each other is okay with the neighbors. But if they were speaking to someone in English and a french speaking friend came up would they make the english speaker invisible? Would they literally switch mid sentence to French? I'll bet they are polite and considerate people and would not. Do they expect other people around them to speak French so they can communicate?

If somebody French came up, they would speak in French. Just like if I met you in France, I'd switch to English. I'd try to accomodate everyone, but a private conversation is just that...private. My co-wokers speak Mandarian...I don't pry into their conversation if they switch in front of me. It's none of my business.

This is what the enclosed hispanic cultural enclaves are like if you are not one of them. Would you expect anyone to want to hang around that too long? Before I moved I lived in a good part of town. Across the street were two markets, both mexican. The only thing which gave you a clue you weren't in mexico were the prices in dollars. I bought a bus pass once and the clerk had to get someone who spoke English. I went out of my way to go to a market that was not full of signs in Spanish and most of all that MUSIC.

I'm straight out of college. I shop at the Mexican stores all the time. They are both in English and Spanish. Personally I don't about the music, because I'm at a supermarket. They aren't playing the new David Lynch CD (Darkness of the Soul? My friend played it, I forgot the name) at Ralphs, that doesn't bother me.

You should note that I was not raised to be this way. But the rudeness and outright hatred of anyone but themselves has made me feel this way. I am not alone. Getting away from that IS part of most people's reasons for leaving.

If that is the motivating reason, then I wish I were in their position to not think about money. Most people are concerned about money. How much house can I buy? This is why many Californians moved to AZ and NV. Then further and further east. I will agree that some ONLY moved due to get away from the others...and frankly I'm happy that they left.

Yes, toxic spending and all the rest. But I come back to all the money spent on illegals who are not supposed to be here, who broke our law to come and are sucking the life out of the state. These people need to be deported. Including ancor babies unless there is a direct relative who is legal and will be fully financially responsible for the child to take them while mom goes back to mexico. This child can NOT be the claim for legally reentering either. With no benefits, no welfare, section 8, kids can't go to school, can't go see a doctor, and on... there is no incentive to come.

I will say going after employers and employ a method for them to easily come legally. Deportation is too costly, too much of a burden on communities, too much of a burden on law enforcement, and most likely ineffective. Those that are here are, for the most part, contributing members of society. We can bring them into the middle class, if we educate their children.

There will always be those who come for work. But if you have to leave family behind (who would bring them if they have nothing?) and hide out or be deported, there would be far fewer. And that would be ONE over a family of twenty.

I really don't know the average size of an illegal immigrant nuclear family...I will say it's more like 4-5 people. Honestly, it will actually be better to have a support system like a family. Crime is always less in a family setting.


We would not be creating an underclass unless these people chose to come. It would be their chosen option. Very stringent fines and prosecution of employers who employ these people would reduce their numbers as well.

Yeah, we will. If you deny education and health, you are creating an underclass. Again, having a legal way for employers to employ them is good. Those that go against that...they should be fined.

We have every right to deny the illegal population their goodies. They come out of choice, they can go home out of choice or as guests of ICE or INS. If California keeps refusing to take a stand as Arizona and Oklahoma has, it will simply keep going down the tubes until its secured gated communities and ghettos. (and the hispanic population who has been here and is a part of the cultuer will not be part of the ghetto).

See, if we deny services, education, and not keep jobs in CA, then we will go down the tubes. Frankly, I'd much rather be middle class in CA, than in OK or AZ. Telling a group of people "no eduation for you" is not a smart move.
Oh macmeal, see, yeah I responded to the points. I agreed with some of the poster's points. This is what a discussion is...not simply saying "Illegal lover!!! You don't want to discuss!!!" So thanks for the sarcasm, but try a little harder next time (even though it might hurt to come up with a new narrative).
 
Old 05-23-2009, 06:42 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,083,470 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
If you came home and discovered a family had moved into your house uninvited, what would you do? Would you embrace them, since they’re already there, or would you call the cops and have them removed?

And before you begin to offer us a treatise comparing a house to a country, we already know they are technically not the same. However, the USA is our home, and we have a right to determine who should and should not gain access.
They are not even close to being the same.The USA is not your "house", it's your country. Every time you go to the fridge do you pay a dollar? Every time a light bulb goes out, do you vote to get a new one? At your home, do you have your kids pay straight into your SS? A country is more complex than a house. It's a really poor analogy.
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