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Old 05-23-2009, 09:06 PM
Status: "happy again, no longer catless! t...." (set 28 days ago)
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,440 posts, read 16,786,181 times
Reputation: 16487

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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
They are not even close to being the same.The USA is not your "house", it's your country. Every time you go to the fridge do you pay a dollar? Every time a light bulb goes out, do you vote to get a new one? At your home, do you have your kids pay straight into your SS? A country is more complex than a house. It's a really poor analogy.
No it isn't. Your house is your territory. Your county is your territory. You can make rules who comes into that territory. We have rules that say you cannot legally enter our collectve house. If your rule was the begger on your lawn could not come inside would you shrug and say fine, stay, if they pushed their way in anyway? We are doing that and how we decide what happens inside is immaterial. Nations are soverign and can make their own rules.

 
Old 05-23-2009, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,857,919 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Not your home (try to redecorate the white house, try to put your own legislation) it's your country and terrorists are different than illegals.
What world are you living in? Among our illegal alien interlopers are indeed terrorists. Do you actually believe our enemies wouldn’t take advantage of our open borders? If illiterate peasants can enter with ease, do you actually believe it would be difficult for sophisticated terrorists? All who enter our country illegally are illegal aliens; be they Mexican, Haitian, Chinese, or terrorists from ANY country.

It is also documented that Mexican coyotes have assisted terrorists. These scumbags don’t care who pays them to enter this country. Get real.

Quote:
It now seems that any person wanting to attack this country could use doctored or manipulated passports or could simply travel to Mexico and pay a Coyote to illegally cross the border.

A 2007 NBC News investigation uncovered a black market for stolen passports in Latin America.[2] A reporter from this network disguised as a tourist was able to obtain entire new identities and official passports from Peru, Spain and Venezuela and travel throughout the hemisphere without ever raising suspicion
http://themengesproject.blogspot.com...-american.html
 
Old 05-23-2009, 09:21 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,092,812 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Pot, meet kettle.

Just accept the fact that the party is over for the illegals---------just that they are so damn delusional as a group that they are still in denial.
Life is not as black and white as many on this board assume. Things are a lot more arbitrary and complex than you and others assume. With that said, shouldn't we have a policy that addresses all complexities. Don't we as Americans deserve this?
 
Old 05-23-2009, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,715,651 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane72 View Post
Yeah, right. I'm sure Barack's about to drop the hammer on em, unlike his over-compassionate, feel-good liberal predecessor, George W. Bush.

Denial is not a river in Egypt
 
Old 05-23-2009, 09:52 PM
Status: "happy again, no longer catless! t...." (set 28 days ago)
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,440 posts, read 16,786,181 times
Reputation: 16487
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Oh macmeal, see, yeah I responded to the points. I agreed with some of the poster's points. This is what a discussion is...not simply saying "Illegal lover!!! You don't want to discuss!!!" So thanks for the sarcasm, but try a little harder next time (even though it might hurt to come up with a new narrative).
First, please reply to my post outside of the quotes.

You say the primary reason in an informal poll that people outmigrate is housing. First an informal poll really says nothing. But even for those people, there are many reasons to move. The primary one may be because of housing since you have to live somewhere, but it is also the means to move. Just because you could sell your house and move to Texas doesn't mean your going to. There has to be much much more to it and a quick poll isn't going to pick up on that.

In regards to spanish and such

You say your just out of college, this says a whole lot. You can't see or know or understand the perception of someone who has lived here years and years and is disgusted with the place. Long term residents and native Californians have seen how the society and state has deteriorated. Culturally people didn't have to rush. grafetti wasn't everywhere, and so many of the places that are on their way to ghettos now were middle class communities. California society has taken a huge fall but you are too young to know. You only see what your used to.

Long term residents who have seen this and have a chance to get out and find a more amenable place will and have and are. And will continue to.

It doesn't matter to me that the use of Spanish declines, what matters is that people like the neighbor who was trying to tell us about the fire did not want to learn. And a good many others in that neighborhood. We have only printed everything in Spanish for a few years. Before people had to learn English because we didn't accomidate them. How much does it cost to print a booklet in three or four languages, how much resourses, how much energy does it use? Learning a language may take time but countless generations of people have done it quickly because they had to. And don't forget the rules for those who come legally, the ones who obey the law and jump through the hoops. They must learn English if they want to live here. What right does someone who snuck in the border have over them? And remember if you were to go to Mexico, they are not going to translate everything to English for you, but expect you to understand them. Whats fair and right for one sovergn nation is fair and right for another.

I understand your statement about a French speaker, but what you were not even afforded the common courtesy of finishing a sentence, and made invisible when someone more desirable showed up? And you felt that it should matter because your kid liked to play there? Yes, a private conversation is private but it does not give one the right to be rude and offensive.

You say that your happy the people who have been hounded out of the state by what has been made of it culturally left, and I pity you. Run this back by yourself in fourty years and see what you think. These people have seen the state they called home and the society they knew stolen by people who have no right to be here in the first place. And this makes you happy? Do you think it was good that I had to move from my neighborhood since it got invaded and taken over too?

Arizona and Oklahoma have passed laws that punish the employers with significant results should they hire illegals. They also demand proof of citizenship for services. The illegals leaving Arizona have prompted their home state in Mexico to protest to Arizona. Oklahoma lost two percent of the hispanic population shortly after the law passed. No job, no services, and people go home. But what microchance does California ever have of passing this kind of law with the pro-illegal lobby and the symphasizers for the poor immigrants? But only by passing this law will California not continue to be over run.

I would much rather have ONE lonely illegal working here and sending money home over a whole family using up school and medical resourses. Mexico's kids are Mexico's to educate.

The state cannot afford to keep giving support to illegals. It dilutes the services to those here legally and our citizens. If you say no school, you are only saying not here. Mexico has schools too.

And if you'd rather live in California I'm happy for you. But people find the environment that works for them. Many Californians have come to both Arizona and Oklahoma. Both states are stating firmly that they do not want to become another California. Oklahoma has a bill on the next ballot which will make English the official language, which means state documents will be printed in English ONLY. California could save enough to pay some of the debt off, or some police or fire, or keep schools from degrading for what all that extra costs.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 11:10 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,651,346 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Oh macmeal, see, yeah I responded to the points. I agreed with some of the poster's points. This is what a discussion is...not simply saying "Illegal lover!!! You don't want to discuss!!!" So thanks for the sarcasm, but try a little harder next time (even though it might hurt to come up with a new narrative).
This is "agreeing with some of the poster's points"? I must have missed THAT part...it appears to me that you meticulously went over each and every single one of the poster's concerns...the well-founded, those a matter of opinion, and those partially in each...and simply told him how he was "wrong" to feel the way he does...EVERY SINGLE TIME....in fact, EVERYONE opposed to illegal immigration, in your eyes, is deluded at best; uncharitable, more than likely; or simply xenophobes. I can't see anything even REMOTELY open-minded in your posts...we're all just WRONG, period. That doesn't fit my definition of a 'discussion'; it's closer to a 'lecture', with you simply pontificating to those of us who don't share your vast insight.

And by the way, what's with the constant refrain about how illegals could 'fit in better' if only "we" would "educate their kids"? Since when don't we "educate" kids....ANY kids? What they DO with that education, or whether they COMPLETE it, it's available...
 
Old 05-23-2009, 11:36 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,651,346 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
No it isn't. Your house is your territory. Your county is your territory. You can make rules who comes into that territory. We have rules that say you cannot legally enter our collectve house. If your rule was the begger on your lawn could not come inside would you shrug and say fine, stay, if they pushed their way in anyway? We are doing that and how we decide what happens inside is immaterial. Nations are soverign and can make their own rules.
I agree....while ALL analogies fall short of 'perfect', comparing a house with a country is a valid one, the poster's protests notwithstanding....he's just annoyed.

ANY 'institution'...regardless of WHAT its level is, or its complexity or simplicity, or size, etc., is going to be organized around parameters. A religion; a family; a business; a labor union; a professional asociation; or yes, even a nation...ALL have rules and definitions and requirements, and they ALL have the right, inherent in their 'being', to determine who's "in" and who's "not in".

You can't be a member of a club unless you're admitted by the membership. You can't be a doctor..or a plumber....or a cab driver...unless you are licensed and 'approved' by those whose job it is to determine this. You can't be a student in a university unless you're admitted, and you can't be a citizen of a country unless you qualify, or are 'let in'...

A country might be a HUGE institution, but it's still an institution....and the "members" of that institution (its citizens) have the right, and the obligation, to decide who does, and who does NOT, get to live there.

In the case of the US, our "rules" have been REMARKABLY benign...we'll take in just about ANYBODY, legally..yet we still have limits, and we still have the right to set quotas, and we still have the right to "know" who shows up here. Any anyone who denies this is simply not in the 'real world'....
 
Old 05-24-2009, 03:03 AM
 
223 posts, read 254,834 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
What world are you living in? Among our illegal alien interlopers are indeed terrorists. Do you actually believe our enemies wouldn’t take advantage of our open borders? If illiterate peasants can enter with ease, do you actually believe it would be difficult for sophisticated terrorists? All who enter our country illegally are illegal aliens; be they Mexican, Haitian, Chinese, or terrorists from ANY country.

It is also documented that Mexican coyotes have assisted terrorists. These scumbags don’t care who pays them to enter this country. Get real.



The Menges' Americas Report: Terrorists buying Latin American Passports to enter the US?
And for that matter, terrorists don't need to sneak in.
The people who carried out 9/11 came here legally on visas.
Al-Quaeda was recruiting Somalian terrorists that were already here legally.
They can recruit US CITIZENS who are sympathetic to their cause.

The linking between illegal immigration and terrorism is complete and total BS. The government continues to play on the weak minded citizens of this country.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 03:22 AM
 
549 posts, read 1,503,515 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraken View Post
I have been living in California for about 4 years and have noticed that the culture that is portrayed on television about California really does not exist anywhere except maybe Santa Monica or Malibu. Most of Southern California is a haven for illegal immigrants and their dirty, crime-ridden, gang-infested neighborhoods.

The culture of California is suffering. Where are all of the historical craftsman houses? Oh yeah, they are being stuccoed and painted pink with tacky iron fences around them. And if you are REALLY lucky, they won't put up a fence at all and instead will use old garage doors and scrap pieces of wood to make a fence.

They park 100 cars in their driveways because there are 40 people living in each home, hanging their laundry on the fences and in the trees and letting their children terrorize the neighborhood with their loud, gang-infested friends.

California was once a beautiful state where people could be anything they wanted and the illegal Mexicans have taken over and turned it into a cesspool that is filthy, expensive, and no longer American.

I am so sick of seeing commercials in Spanish and receiving mail at my home that is only written in Spanish.

I am sick of going to grocery stores where the clerks don's speak English.

I am sick of hearing Mariachi clown music blasted day and night with no regard to people who have to sleep.

I am sick of trying to buy clothing and finding nothing but tacky, lime-green, stretchy hooker dresses with sequins and bullcrap sewn all over it.

I am sick of people with pit bulls terrorizing the neighborhoods with their out-of-control dogs.

I am sick of illegals taking work from my partner who is in construction and doing illegal renovations to houses for 10 cents on the dollar.

I am sick of the crime, the theft, the gangs.

I am sick of the government of California kowtowing to the illegals and making room for them to come over here and crap out a bunch of anchor babies and rape our healthcare system with their promiscuous, ignorant, non-birth-control-taking selves.

I am sick of illegals sending their non-english-speaking children to school where other children suffer because the teachers are spending half of their class time catering to the illegal children.

I am sick of seeing masses of illegals hovering around Home Depot holding up signs demanding $15 an hour to do illegal under the table work.

I am sick of illegals knocking on my door trying to sell their homemade tamales, asking if I have any gold to sell, or asking if they can mow my lawn for extra money.

I am sick of living in a state where I pay thousands of dollars in taxes to support people who do not work and keep having children and getting their rent for free.

I am sick of having to pay extra insurance because so many of the illegals on the road do not have a driver's license OR car insurance.

I am sick of immigration rallies being held downtown where the taxpayers have to be responsible for cleaning up after the carnage and providing security.

California will not be recognizable in 5 years. I barely recognize it now.

I recommend you a state whose name is not written in Spanish.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 03:41 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,092,812 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I agree....while ALL analogies fall short of 'perfect', comparing a house with a country is a valid one, the poster's protests notwithstanding....he's just annoyed.

ANY 'institution'...regardless of WHAT its level is, or its complexity or simplicity, or size, etc., is going to be organized around parameters. A religion; a family; a business; a labor union; a professional asociation; or yes, even a nation...ALL have rules and definitions and requirements, and they ALL have the right, inherent in their 'being', to determine who's "in" and who's "not in".

You can't be a member of a club unless you're admitted by the membership. You can't be a doctor..or a plumber....or a cab driver...unless you are licensed and 'approved' by those whose job it is to determine this. You can't be a student in a university unless you're admitted, and you can't be a citizen of a country unless you qualify, or are 'let in'...

A country might be a HUGE institution, but it's still an institution....and the "members" of that institution (its citizens) have the right, and the obligation, to decide who does, and who does NOT, get to live there.

In the case of the US, our "rules" have been REMARKABLY benign...we'll take in just about ANYBODY, legally..yet we still have limits, and we still have the right to set quotas, and we still have the right to "know" who shows up here. Any anyone who denies this is simply not in the 'real world'....
Not at all annoyed, but I just realize the analogies simplify the level of running a country as a household. It's not the same.

It's true any organization or group is run around parameters. However, some organizations have more complexity with said parameters.

A nation is more than an institution. It's more than a social club to determine who enters in or not. There are greater amounts of complexities at work. A university is relatively simple...at this range of GPA, SAT, extracurricular activities we will let you in. A nation needs to determine alliances (economic and political), it needs to determine the long term costs and benefits of its immigration policies, its needs to determine the changing cultural/political/economic landscape. The standards are less objective.

A house is relatively less complex than a nation. This is simply the point I'm making. The scenario of a stranger entering your home is suppossed to be more an emotional appeal by relieving you of the complexities of a nation. But if you think of the workings of a nation, you realize its not a house. It is just that, a nation.

We really should figure out what is best for our nation. Instead of relying on ultra nationalistic appeals for deportation...we should see what works for the long run. Quotas? Many will agree not a great idea in its present form. Maybe quotas in the sense of restricting immigration during leaner years, yeah (since this benefits both immigrants and nationals). I don't know really if it really will make a bearing on the economy since immigrants constitute a minority of people.

The real world is more about seeing the long term effects of things than seeing things from a singular, present perspective.
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