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Old 05-24-2009, 03:54 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,088,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
This is "agreeing with some of the poster's points"? I must have missed THAT part...it appears to me that you meticulously went over each and every single one of the poster's concerns...the well-founded, those a matter of opinion, and those partially in each...and simply told him how he was "wrong" to feel the way he does...EVERY SINGLE TIME....in fact, EVERYONE opposed to illegal immigration, in your eyes, is deluded at best; uncharitable, more than likely; or simply xenophobes. I can't see anything even REMOTELY open-minded in your posts...we're all just WRONG, period. That doesn't fit my definition of a 'discussion'; it's closer to a 'lecture', with you simply pontificating to those of us who don't share your vast insight.

And by the way, what's with the constant refrain about how illegals could 'fit in better' if only "we" would "educate their kids"? Since when don't we "educate" kids....ANY kids? What they DO with that education, or whether they COMPLETE it, it's available...
I never called them xenophobes. I agreed with some points. You mentioned I've not discussed because I've not "agreed" with points. Even remotely open minded? Well, Mac, its because honestly I think that your posts are full of remarks that are ad hominen attacks. I think that you rely on a brand of undeveloped sarcasm. I think you'd rather people simply say "you're right" and then we will have a discussion. You've only had snarky statements. That's when I get rude. It's about the time you feel the need to try to attack and use sarcasm. Honestly, I do the research and my put out my ideas (some of which is actually agreement, some not. Only if they presented in a way where I'm not called a "commie", "delusion" or some other insult.) and thus I'm pontificating?

Look, go to schools in Compton, San Bernardino, Santa Ana...tell me what you see. You'll see schools that are in horrible shape, with frustrated new teachers, old books, chairs built in the 1950s, and a scarcity of advanced classes. We don't hold the same standards. We don't.

You want them to be assimilated and speak English. You don't want them on welfare. Why is it bad to educate? Why not raise the standards of our schools that are filled with many immigrants? Why do we have schools that are so shoddy that they resemble the third world?

 
Old 05-24-2009, 04:29 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,088,720 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
first, please reply to my post outside of the quotes.

look, it's easier for me to make sure i get every point and address it all.

you say the primary reason in an informal poll that people outmigrate is housing. First an informal poll really says nothing. But even for those people, there are many reasons to move. The primary one may be because of housing since you have to live somewhere, but it is also the means to move. Just because you could sell your house and move to texas doesn't mean your going to. There has to be much much more to it and a quick poll isn't going to pick up on that.

the average home price in ca was signficantly higher than the national average. It was over 500k. A new family making the ca average family income could not get the average home. Even in the "affordable regions" ite was 400k. So its makes sense to move. Also, if you bought at 90k and now your home is worth 500k, you'd move to get a better house and more money. Doesn't that make some more sense than only moving due to immigrants? It could have an after thought, or even a secondary reason (which i kind of doubt, but you never know), but the main factor was money.

in regards to spanish and such

you say your just out of college, this says a whole lot. You can't see or know or understand the perception of someone who has lived here years and years and is disgusted with the place. Long term residents and native californians have seen how the society and state has deteriorated. Culturally people didn't have to rush. Grafetti wasn't everywhere, and so many of the places that are on their way to ghettos now were middle class communities. California society has taken a huge fall but you are too young to know. You only see what your used to.

i see what my family says and put it into context. My dad would complain about xyz and realize that his complaints were because they did not match the past. Does that mean the present is worse? No. It's simply different. Grafitti was at its peak in the 1970s. Clali was worse. Higher crime, worse smog, higher poverty, yet oddly it was at its whitest (70-80%). Hispanics were not in large numbers. California took a huge upswing during the 2000s when it was the poster child prior to 2007. You only like what you miss.

long term residents who have seen this and have a chance to get out and find a more amenable place will and have and are. And will continue to.

long term residents who moved are typically reluctant of the changing demographics. It makes sense. It's not a bad thing. However, it still is (sometimes) irrational. Sometimes it is completely justified. I agree, if you lived in some communities you'd want to move. With that said though, most communities in california are nice.

it doesn't matter to me that the use of spanish declines, what matters is that people like the neighbor who was trying to tell us about the fire did not want to learn. And a good many others in that neighborhood. We have only printed everything in spanish for a few years. Before people had to learn english because we didn't accomidate them. How much does it cost to print a booklet in three or four languages, how much resourses, how much energy does it use? Learning a language may take time but countless generations of people have done it quickly because they had to. And don't forget the rules for those who come legally, the ones who obey the law and jump through the hoops. They must learn english if they want to live here. What right does someone who snuck in the border have over them? And remember if you were to go to mexico, they are not going to translate everything to english for you, but expect you to understand them. Whats fair and right for one sovergn nation is fair and right for another.

well clearly it did matter to you, otherwise you would care about the rise of spanish. If you care about the rise, then you care about the overall usage. Decline is a part of it. People learn languages really slowly. Esp. Adults. By the time we are full blown infants we lose the ability to distinguish languages as quickly. This distinction only accelerates. An effort does need to be made. I agree with you. But something is needed during the learning process.

i understand your statement about a french speaker, but what you were not even afforded the common courtesy of finishing a sentence, and made invisible when someone more desirable showed up? And you felt that it should matter because your kid liked to play there? Yes, a private conversation is private but it does not give one the right to be rude and offensive.

again it happens to me quite consistently. It is rude to pry into a private conversation. If it were an all english conversation that needed to be attended to, the people would simply leave. It's a private convo is again none of my business.

you say that your happy the people who have been hounded out of the state by what has been made of it culturally left, and i pity you. Run this back by yourself in fourty years and see what you think. These people have seen the state they called home and the society they knew stolen by people who have no right to be here in the first place. And this makes you happy? Do you think it was good that i had to move from my neighborhood since it got invaded and taken over too?

don't pity me. These same people accused me of being a "terrorist" for being born in riyadh. These same people disrupt my life by telling me that i'm not american enough when i'm speaking in to my mom in french in front while standing in line at the supermarket, even though it's really none of their business what i'm saying. These are the same people that always complain about mexicans while eating mexican food. Instead of finding a solution to the problem, they make a list of things that are insignificant and irrelevant and rant online (the op of this thread is a great example...esp. Concerning about clothing...there is gap in california, it started here. Along with levi, dockers, american apparel, and others).

arizona and oklahoma have passed laws that punish the employers with significant results should they hire illegals. They also demand proof of citizenship for services. The illegals leaving arizona have prompted their home state in mexico to protest to arizona. Oklahoma lost two percent of the hispanic population shortly after the law passed. No job, no services, and people go home. But what microchance does california ever have of passing this kind of law with the pro-illegal lobby and the symphasizers for the poor immigrants? But only by passing this law will california not continue to be over run.

people don't go home, they go to another state. Or they stay, because they realize they can still work in the black market. Illegalization of things just creates a black market. Labor becomes the product in this market.

i would much rather have one lonely illegal working here and sending money home over a whole family using up school and medical resourses. Mexico's kids are mexico's to educate.

honestly, i understand what you are saying. You'd rather see lower numbers in general. I get it. It makes sense. Think about it another way. If you are so frustrated then you are more likely to do something dumb. Not having your family around is about as frustrating as it gets. Hence why people in these sitatuations (sending money abroad to their families) are more likely to commit a crime. So this is another consideration.

the state cannot afford to keep giving support to illegals. It dilutes the services to those here legally and our citizens. If you say no school, you are only saying not here. Mexico has schools too.

our services are diluted because of mismanagement, not illegals. The parents are making money here, if you say no schools you create a class of undereducated people here.

and if you'd rather live in california i'm happy for you. But people find the environment that works for them. Many californians have come to both arizona and oklahoma. Both states are stating firmly that they do not want to become another california. Oklahoma has a bill on the next ballot which will make english the official language, which means state documents will be printed in english only. California could save enough to pay some of the debt off, or some police or fire, or keep schools from degrading for what all that extra costs.

i'm again saying those leaving ca only on the basis of changing demographics. That's silly. Other than that, i wish the best to those that moved. But to say i'm moving because hispanics are here...that's kind of not okay. It's also not okay to say "whites this" "blacks that" or "asians this" etc. I mean it's superficial and really doesn't do anything worthwhile.
a
 
Old 05-24-2009, 09:36 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,640,529 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I never called them xenophobes. I agreed with some points. You mentioned I've not discussed because I've not "agreed" with points. Even remotely open minded? Well, Mac, its because honestly I think that your posts are full of remarks that are ad hominen attacks. I think that you rely on a brand of undeveloped sarcasm. I think you'd rather people simply say "you're right" and then we will have a discussion. You've only had snarky statements. That's when I get rude. It's about the time you feel the need to try to attack and use sarcasm. Honestly, I do the research and my put out my ideas (some of which is actually agreement, some not. Only if they presented in a way where I'm not called a "commie", "delusion" or some other insult.) and thus I'm pontificating?

Look, go to schools in Compton, San Bernardino, Santa Ana...tell me what you see. You'll see schools that are in horrible shape, with frustrated new teachers, old books, chairs built in the 1950s, and a scarcity of advanced classes. We don't hold the same standards. We don't.

You want them to be assimilated and speak English. You don't want them on welfare. Why is it bad to educate? Why not raise the standards of our schools that are filled with many immigrants? Why do we have schools that are so shoddy that they resemble the third world?
Once again, I stand corrected..you're right, and I'm sarcastic. I won't belabor the point further. In answer to your question, I'd have to say "I don't know, That1guy; why, INDEED, do we have schools that resemble the third world?" Cheaper grade of paint, I guess...or maybe the toilets are old...I don't know. I DO know that some VERY intelligent people in the recent past HAVE gotten a terrific, well-rounded education sitting two to a desk in some pretty decrepit schools. Some have become extremely well-read sitting outside around the teacher under a shade tree. How did they DO this? I would imagine it was a combination of many things...a hunger for learning; parental pressure; extremely dedicated teachers; an appreciation for knowledge; and just plain being mature and focused. Who knows, though? Maybe it was just a lack of skateboards...all I know is that I don't believe outdated schools and stained hallways explain the total reason for failure to learn. NOR do I feel any guilt whatsoever for "denying" anyone an education.

Why do we have 'nice' schools and 'outdated' ones? I don't know. Why do we have 'nice' neighborhoods, and those marred by grafitti and discarded trash? I don't know that, either.....but I'm confident you'll explain it....right after you explain how ANY of this relates to the 'rights' of those who are here illegally.

(PS...I noticed that after my "rant" at you, you became a LOT more polite with Nightbird (above) than you previously were....almost like you 'lightened up', on your own volition. Amazing. Guess you just saw the error of your previous tone?..or that, in contrast to ME, nightbird just sounds suddenly a lot more 'reasonable' than he did before.......one has to wonder)..

Last edited by macmeal; 05-24-2009 at 10:10 AM..
 
Old 05-24-2009, 09:41 AM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,914,213 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Once again, I stand corrected..you're right, and I'm sarcastic. I won't belabor the point further. In answer to your question, I'd have to say "I don't know, That1guy; why, INDEED, do we have schools that resemble the third world?" Cheaper grade of paint, I guess...or maybe the toilets are old...I don't know. I DO know that some VERY intelligent people in the recent past HAVE gotten a terrific, well-rounded education sitting two to a desk in some pretty decrepit schools. Some have become extremely well-read sitting outside around the teacher under a shade tree. How did they DO this? I would imagine it was a combination of many things...a hunger for learning; parental pressure; extremely dedicated teachers; an appreciation for knowledge; and just plain being mature and focused. Who knows, though? Maybe it was just a lack of skateboards...all I know is that I don't believe outdated schools and stained hallways explain the total reason for failure to learn. NOR do I feel any guilt whatsoever for "denying" anyone an education.

Why do we have 'nice' schools and 'outdated' ones? I don't know. Why do we have 'nice' neighborhoods, and those marred by grafitti and discarded trash? I don't know that, either.....but I'm cofident you'll explain it....right after you explain how ANY of this relates to the 'rights' of those who are here illegally.
Yet another brilliant post. Kudos
 
Old 05-24-2009, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,844,279 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by thechicano View Post
And for that matter, terrorists don't need to sneak in.
The people who carried out 9/11 came here legally on visas.
Al-Quaeda was recruiting Somalian terrorists that were already here legally.
They can recruit US CITIZENS who are sympathetic to their cause.

The linking between illegal immigration and terrorism is complete and total BS. The government continues to play on the weak minded citizens of this country.
Only the truly naive or foolish will not recognize the threat inherent in our open borders with Mexico. Why bother going through the time and expense of obtaining a tourist visa, or any other visa for that matter, when one can simply walk across our border with Mexico, as thousands do on a daily basis? Címon, surely you can comprehend this.

No, I believe you recognize the threat, but have a compelling need to defend Mexico and Mexican illegal aliens. In your mind, to acknowledge a connection between illegal immigration and terrorism would tarnish the image of Mexican illegal aliens, and validate our need for secure borders. Iím sure terrorists have also entered through Canada. However, I doubt if you would so fervently defend that border.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, our lax border security has made us vulnerable to terrorism. Terrorists are here, they are phenomenally patient, and eventually they will attack again; all courtesy of our open borders Ė an integral component of our cheap illegal labor industry. So yes, there is a connection between illegal immigration and terrorism. Calling it BS does not alter this fact; nor will it diminish the threat.

The fact that Ďsomeí of the 9/11 terrorists were here on visas (3 of the 4 pilots were here illegally), or that we have homegrown terrorists, does not negate the threat posed by our open borders. It only underscores the vast avenues available to our enemies, and our level of vulnerability.

Quote:
According to the INS, three of the 19 hijackers were here illegally on expired visas, and two were able to obtain valid visas despite being on U.S. intelligence agency watch lists.
Center for Immigration Studies

Quote:
Even as we speak, tens of thousands of illegals from terrorist-sponsoring states are roaming the streets of America, according to a stunning new report from the Department of Homeland Securityís Office of Inspector General.

The report reveals that 45,008 aliens from countries on the U.S. list of state-sponsors of terror (SST) or from countries that protected terrorist organizations and their members (SIC) were released into the general public between 2001 and 2005, even though immigration officers couldnít confirm their identity.
FrontPage Magazine - Broken

Quote:
An al-Qaida operative who was on the FBI's terrorist watch list was recently captured near the Mexican border, housed in a Texas jail and turned over to federal agents, Rep. John Culberson, R-Texas, said on Friday.
Al-Qaida Operative Nabbed Near Mexican Border


Itís interesting how quickly you have responded to my comments to ANOTHER poster; yet, you conveniently evade questions I posed to you. Why is that? For your convenience, I have attached the following link. I await your response. Hispanic-Americans Set to Speak at Anti-Illegal Immigration Rally

Quote:
Originally Posted by thechicano View Post
That whole "You don't speak for me" is a stupid publicity stunt.
Of course there are going to be Hispanics on either side of the issue. Just like there are Whites, Blacks, Asians, Native Americans on either side of the issue.
It's sad when a bunch of Hispanics have to feel so insecure about their ethnicity, that they feel compelled to make a group like this.

And it's funny how people who otherwise go on and on about how bad Hispanics and their cultures are, will turn around and pat these people on the head.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
But, I thought this isn't about ethnicity. I thought Hispanics who support illegal immigration do so for 'other' reasons. So, if you can support illegal immigration for non-ethnic reasons, why must ethnicity be mentioned when Hispanics oppose illegal immigration? Why must they be ďinsecure about their ethnicity?Ē You canít have it both ways. Either ethnicity is irrelevant, or itís a factor. Which is it?
 
Old 05-24-2009, 11:51 AM
 
Location: The Wine Country, CA
807 posts, read 1,118,937 times
Reputation: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by thechicano View Post
And for that matter, terrorists don't need to sneak in.
The people who carried out 9/11 came here legally on visas.
Al-Quaeda was recruiting Somalian terrorists that were already here legally.
They can recruit US CITIZENS who are sympathetic to their cause.

The linking between illegal immigration and terrorism is complete and total BS. The government continues to play on the weak minded citizens of this country.

What about the Drug Cartels that are sneaking into U.S. cities from the Southern Border? They may not be "Al Queda" terrorists, but terrorists nonetheless..
 
Old 05-24-2009, 12:08 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,914,213 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolarpunk View Post
What about the Drug Cartels that are sneaking into U.S. cities from the Southern Border? They may not be "Al Queda" terrorists, but terrorists nonetheless..
Quote:
Mexican drug cartels operating in 230 U.S. cities
Posted: 04:00 PM ET
FROM CNN’s Jack Cafferty:
The Obama administration says it will send hundreds of federal agents and crime-fighting equipment to the Mexican border in an effort to prevent drug-related violence from spilling over into this country. It’s a little late — the Mexican drug cartels are already active in 230 American cities.
A section of the U.S./Mexico border fence crosses previously pristine desert sands between Arizona and California. Homeland Security may respond to escalating violence of warring Mexican drug cartels by deploying military personnel and equipment to the region.

$700 million meant to bolster Mexican law enforcement and crime prevention efforts probably can’t come soon enough. The mayor of Phoenix says it’s a great first step, but “a drop in the bucket in terms of what’s needed.” Crimes like drug-related kidnappings and torturing are overwhelming the Phoenix police department. And Texas Governor Rick Perry had asked for a thousand more troops for parts of the border, saying he doesn’t care what kind of troops they are as long as they’re properly trained.
[b]Meanwhile, the Justice Department has identified 230 U.S. cities where the Mexican cartels “maintain drug distribution networks or supply drugs to distributors,” and we’re not just talking about cities along the border here; they include places like Anchorage, Alaska, Atlanta, Boston and Billings, Montana.
Cafferty File: Tell Jack how you really feel Blog Archive - Mexican drug cartels operating in 230 U.S. cities ę - Blogs from CNN.com
 
Old 05-24-2009, 12:08 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,088,720 times
Reputation: 822
Once again, I stand corrected..you're right, and I'm sarcastic. I won't belabor the point further. In answer to your question, I'd have to say "I don't know, That1guy; why, INDEED, do we have schools that resemble the third world?" Cheaper grade of paint, I guess...or maybe the toilets are old...I don't know. I DO know that some VERY intelligent people in the recent past HAVE gotten a terrific, well-rounded education sitting two to a desk in some pretty decrepit schools. Some have become extremely well-read sitting outside around the teacher under a shade tree. How did they DO this? I would imagine it was a combination of many things...a hunger for learning; parental pressure; extremely dedicated teachers; an appreciation for knowledge; and just plain being mature and focused. Who knows, though? Maybe it was just a lack of skateboards...all I know is that I don't believe outdated schools and stained hallways explain the total reason for failure to learn. NOR do I feel any guilt whatsoever for "denying" anyone an education.

Good thing you admit it. Admission is the first step.
I went to school in the ghetto (fortunately I didn't live in the ghetto). And frankly, anyone that can say "well people made it out okay, so it must be fine" probably never had that experience. Fewer people make it out. Let's face it. There is a severe lack of resources. My school proves that advance classes are needed to succeed. In San Bernardino School District, if you did not go to Cajon, then your chances were diminished for getting into college. It's not just "outdated schools". It's lack of classes, overcrowding, lack of experienced teachers, lack of books, distracting environment. It really bothers me when people essentially say it's okay to have terrible schools since a minority of people can go through it. I'm not trying to make you guilty, but rather saying that we do need to fix our schools in poor areas.

Why do we have 'nice' schools and 'outdated' ones? I don't know. Why do we have 'nice' neighborhoods, and those marred by grafitti and discarded trash? I don't know that, either.....but I'm confident you'll explain it....right after you explain how ANY of this relates to the 'rights' of those who are here illegally.

Class differences in the US...and class differences is at the crux of the immigration debate. We neglect those that are poor in this nation. We say things like " I DO know that some VERY intelligent people in the recent past HAVE gotten a terrific, well-rounded education sitting two to a desk in some pretty decrepit schools." This can create a sense of apathy. At the end of the day, I just want to see more people enter into the middle class. Education is the key for that. Fixing schools that are underperforming will help tremendously.

(PS...I noticed that after my "rant" at you, you became a LOT more polite with Nightbird (above) than you previously were....almost like you 'lightened up', on your own volition. Amazing. Guess you just saw the error of your previous tone?..or that, in contrast to ME, nightbird just sounds suddenly a lot more 'reasonable' than he did before.......one has to wonder)...

Well your posts seem to be a combination of sarcasm and personal attacks. Nightbird has had some combo as well. At times you act like the posters you dislike; you seem to just only want to go on a superficial level of attacking. Sometimes you actually make great points. So I wouldn't say saw the error in my ways... just like your little jabs will always continue. What truly is amazing is that others have told me to watch out for your sarcasm, dead on with that warning.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,844,279 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Good thing you admit it. Admission is the first step.
I went to school in the ghetto (fortunately I didn't live in the ghetto). And frankly, anyone that can say "well people made it out okay, so it must be fine" probably never had that experience. Fewer people make it out. Let's face it. There is a severe lack of resources. My school proves that advance classes are needed to succeed. In San Bernardino School District, if you did not go to Cajon, then your chances were diminished for getting into college. It's not just "outdated schools". It's lack of classes, overcrowding, lack of experienced teachers, lack of books, distracting environment. It really bothers me when people essentially say it's okay to have terrible schools since a minority of people can go through it. I'm not trying to make you guilty, but rather saying that we do need to fix our schools in poor areas.

Class differences in the US...and class differences is at the crux of the immigration debate. We neglect those that are poor in this nation. We say things like " I DO know that some VERY intelligent people in the recent past HAVE gotten a terrific, well-rounded education sitting two to a desk in some pretty decrepit schools." This can create a sense of apathy. At the end of the day, I just want to see more people enter into the middle class. Education is the key for that. Fixing schools that are underperforming will help tremendously.

Well your posts seem to be a combination of sarcasm and personal attacks. Nightbird has had some combo as well. At times you act like the posters you dislike; you seem to just only want to go on a superficial level of attacking. Sometimes you actually make great points. So I wouldn't say saw the error in my ways... just like your little jabs will always continue. What truly is amazing is that others have told me to watch out for your sarcasm, dead on with that warning.
We are discussing illegal aliens. Why do you continue to conflate legal with illegal as though there is no distinction? We need better educational systems in this country FOR AMERICANS. We donít need to focus on educating illegal aliens; let their countries of origin accept that responsibility. However, we DO need to focus on viable methods for removing them from this country.

BTW, a complete post in red is hard on readersí eyes.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 12:40 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,088,720 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
We are discussing illegal aliens. Why do you continue to conflate legal with illegal as though there is no distinction? We need better educational systems in this country FOR AMERICANS. We donít need to focus on educating illegal aliens; let their countries of origin accept that responsibility. However, we DO need to focus on viable methods for removing them from this country.

If you are in the US, pay taxes, use services, go to work, participate in the economy...there is little tangible distinction. By that I mean, day to day activities are similar. We need better education for ALL PERSONS in this nation. Since there is no tangible distinction (you can't just look at somebody and say that they are illegal or not...you can't observe a person for a day and make a claim they are 100% illegal or not...because again day to day living is pretty much the same) there would not be a focus on educating illegals, but rather on education of the poor in general.

We need to focus on a way to assimilate the illegal immigrants here, find a viable way to control illegal immigration, and find a viable way for immigration in general...faster visas, faster routes towards becoming a citizen, guest worker program, etc.
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