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Old 05-24-2009, 12:49 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,823 posts, read 30,091,418 times
Reputation: 17698

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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
If you are in the US, pay taxes, use services, go to work, participate in the economy...there is little tangible distinction. By that I mean, day to day activities are similar. We need better education for ALL PERSONS in this nation. Since there is no tangible distinction (you can't just look at somebody and say that they are illegal or not...you can't observe a person for a day and make a claim they are 100% illegal or not...because again day to day living is pretty much the same) there would not be a focus on educating illegals, but rather on education of the poor in general.

We need to focus on a way to assimilate the illegal immigrants here, find a viable way to control illegal immigration, and find a viable way for immigration in general...faster visas, faster routes towards becoming a citizen, guest worker program, etc.
No, no and no. IMO we have too many mouths to feed already in this Country. We have finite resources, even a 1/2 million legally a year is too many. We are Humans not Lemmings!

 
Old 05-24-2009, 12:54 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,081,741 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
No, no and no. IMO we have to many mouths to feed already in this Country. We have finite resources, even a 1/2 million legally a year is too many. We are Humans not Lemmings!
How do we have too many mounths to feed in this country already? We have more "stuff" than ever before. We've gotten so used to a rising economy that a moderate recession is viewed as the next great depression. Also, indeed we are humans, not lemmings. So we should start figuring out what will indeed help and not harm other humans and ourselves.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 01:02 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,714,475 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
If you are in the US, pay taxes, use services, go to work, participate in the economy...there is little tangible distinction. By that I mean, day to day activities are similar. We need better education for ALL PERSONS in this nation. Since there is no tangible distinction (you can't just look at somebody and say that they are illegal or not...you can't observe a person for a day and make a claim they are 100% illegal or not...because again day to day living is pretty much the same) there would not be a focus on educating illegals, but rather on education of the poor in general.
According to your reasoning, there is no difference between someone driving a stolen car and someone driving a car they paid for since both are driving cars. There is no difference between a bank robber carrying a sack of money out of the bank and a bank depositor carrying a sack of money that he has taken out of his account since both are carrying sacks of money. There is no difference between an actual American with a ss# and an illegal with a stolen/forged ss# since both have ss#s.

Quite frankly, this line of thought represents the sort of moral vacuity that leaves me shaking my head.


Quote:
We need to focus on a way to assimilate the illegal immigrants here, find a viable way to control illegal immigration, and find a viable way for immigration in general...faster visas, faster routes towards becoming a citizen, guest worker program, etc.
Says who?
 
Old 05-24-2009, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,824,744 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
If you are in the US, pay taxes, use services, go to work, participate in the economy...there is little tangible distinction. By that I mean, day to day activities are similar. We need better education for ALL PERSONS in this nation. Since there is no tangible distinction (you can't just look at somebody and say that they are illegal or not...you can't observe a person for a day and make a claim they are 100% illegal or not...because again day to day living is pretty much the same) there would not be a focus on educating illegals, but rather on education of the poor in general.

We need to focus on a way to assimilate the illegal immigrants here, find a viable way to control illegal immigration, and find a viable way for immigration in general...faster visas, faster routes towards becoming a citizen, guest worker program, etc.

Oh please! No matter how hard you try, you can’t transform an illegal alien into a U.S. citizen. You can’t walk down the street and immediately distinguish a single person from a married person either, but I assure you, there is a difference.

If illegal aliens were recognized as being the same as U.S. citizens, we wouldn’t have this forum, and there would be no need for debate. The more you refuse to distinguish between legal and illegal, the less credibility you have.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 01:13 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,081,741 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Oh please! No matter how hard you try, you canít transform an illegal alien into a U.S. citizen. You canít walk down the street and immediately distinguish a single person from a married person either, but I assure you, there is a difference.

If illegal aliens were recognized as being the same as U.S. citizens, we wouldnít have this forum, and there would be no need for debate. The more you refuse to distinguish between legal and illegal, the less credibility you have.
There is a tangible difference (another person). Telling the difference between people that are married and those that live together but not married is a more apt analogy.

I simply stated that there is no tangible difference. There is no difference in the sense of what makes up their everyday living. A single vs. married person yes. The more you make analogies that either too simplistic or not apt, well that makes it hard to have a conversation.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 01:15 PM
 
1,117 posts, read 1,748,199 times
Reputation: 966
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Once again, I stand corrected..you're right, and I'm sarcastic. I won't belabor the point further. In answer to your question, I'd have to say "I don't know, That1guy; why, INDEED, do we have schools that resemble the third world?" Cheaper grade of paint, I guess...or maybe the toilets are old...I don't know. I DO know that some VERY intelligent people in the recent past HAVE gotten a terrific, well-rounded education sitting two to a desk in some pretty decrepit schools. Some have become extremely well-read sitting outside around the teacher under a shade tree. How did they DO this? I would imagine it was a combination of many things...a hunger for learning; parental pressure; extremely dedicated teachers; an appreciation for knowledge; and just plain being mature and focused. Who knows, though? Maybe it was just a lack of skateboards...all I know is that I don't believe outdated schools and stained hallways explain the total reason for failure to learn. NOR do I feel any guilt whatsoever for "denying" anyone an education.

Good thing you admit it. Admission is the first step.
I went to school in the ghetto (fortunately I didn't live in the ghetto). And frankly, anyone that can say "well people made it out okay, so it must be fine" probably never had that experience. Fewer people make it out. Let's face it. There is a severe lack of resources. My school proves that advance classes are needed to succeed. In San Bernardino School District, if you did not go to Cajon, then your chances were diminished for getting into college. It's not just "outdated schools". It's lack of classes, overcrowding, lack of experienced teachers, lack of books, distracting environment. It really bothers me when people essentially say it's okay to have terrible schools since a minority of people can go through it. I'm not trying to make you guilty, but rather saying that we do need to fix our schools in poor areas.

Why do we have 'nice' schools and 'outdated' ones? I don't know. Why do we have 'nice' neighborhoods, and those marred by grafitti and discarded trash? I don't know that, either.....but I'm confident you'll explain it....right after you explain how ANY of this relates to the 'rights' of those who are here illegally.

Class differences in the US...and class differences is at the crux of the immigration debate. We neglect those that are poor in this nation. We say things like " I DO know that some VERY intelligent people in the recent past HAVE gotten a terrific, well-rounded education sitting two to a desk in some pretty decrepit schools." This can create a sense of apathy. At the end of the day, I just want to see more people enter into the middle class. Education is the key for that. Fixing schools that are underperforming will help tremendously.

(PS...I noticed that after my "rant" at you, you became a LOT more polite with Nightbird (above) than you previously were....almost like you 'lightened up', on your own volition. Amazing. Guess you just saw the error of your previous tone?..or that, in contrast to ME, nightbird just sounds suddenly a lot more 'reasonable' than he did before.......one has to wonder)...

Well your posts seem to be a combination of sarcasm and personal attacks. Nightbird has had some combo as well. At times you act like the posters you dislike; you seem to just only want to go on a superficial level of attacking. Sometimes you actually make great points. So I wouldn't say saw the error in my ways... just like your little jabs will always continue. What truly is amazing is that others have told me to watch out for your sarcasm, dead on with that warning.
Give it up. You're losing your debate with macmeal. Your arguments are fallacious and based on emotion and arrogance. Macmeal has presented valid and logical arguments that you refuse to consider. You're simply in this forum to tell everybody off, not to engage in a civil and rational debate.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,824,744 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
There is a tangible difference (another person). Telling the difference between people that are married and those that live together but not married is a more apt analogy.

I simply stated that there is no tangible difference. There is no difference in the sense of what makes up their everyday living. A single vs. married person yes. The more you make analogies that either too simplistic or not apt, well that makes it hard to have a conversation.
You are truly grasping at straws, and itís pathetic. Why donít you stop embarrassing yourself, and try to discuss this issue with some semblance of logic.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 01:23 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,714,475 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
There is a tangible difference (another person). Telling the difference between people that are married and those that live together but not married is a more apt analogy.

I simply stated that there is no tangible difference. There is no difference in the sense of what makes up their everyday living. A single vs. married person yes. The more you make analogies that either too simplistic or not apt, well that makes it hard to have a conversation.
It has been some time since I sat in a HS classroom. Do they teach students that in order to have a functional society it is necessary for people to obey the law and follow the rules? Do they teach the quaint concepts of right and wrong? Or is everything all 'relative'?
 
Old 05-24-2009, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Texas
470 posts, read 508,506 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
According to your reasoning, there is no difference between someone driving a stolen car and someone driving a car they paid for since both are driving cars. There is no difference between a bank robber carrying a sack of money out of the bank and a bank depositor carrying a sack of money that he has taken out of his account since both are carrying sacks of money. There is no difference between an actual American with a ss# and an illegal with a stolen/forged ss# since both have ss#s.

Quite frankly, this line of thought represents the sort of moral vacuity that leaves me shaking my head.
Agreed on all points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Says who?
Says the sad story in the Sunday paper. They are just human beings like you and me...sniffle...sniffle...

Humans that...pledge their allegiance to another nation, are sending money to another nation, competing for jobs and welfare resources of our native people, refusing to assimilate(because they think Mexico first! just ask Juan Hernandez), changing our cultural land scape, and...You get the point. But yeah other than that they are JUST LIKE you and me!
 
Old 05-24-2009, 01:40 PM
 
624 posts, read 1,047,265 times
Reputation: 614
Default teachable

Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
It has been some time since I sat in a HS classroom. Do they teach students that in order to have a functional society it is necessary for people to obey the law and follow the rules? Do they teach the quaint concepts of right and wrong? Or is everything all 'relative'?
To learn one has to be teachable...ready to learn and cabable to learn. Kids learn more from their family than school. If mom is a liar and dad works for cash under the table...what rules are these kids learning? If you enter a country illegally, what are the kids learning? Don't look to school. Schools teach that you came from a monkey and everything you see was an accident from a big explosion.
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