U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 05-24-2009, 06:49 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,080,559 times
Reputation: 822

Advertisements

Whether you like it or not or whether your eyes glaze over every time you see and read them or whether or not you think they are no fun and don't suit you agenda, facts are facts and laws are laws. They always have been. 2+2 Does equal 4 no matter how much you like the number 5.

Except I'm not being told 2+2=4...I'm bein told 2+2=PANIC, FEAR, ARGHH!!!! If it weren't so, well, theatrical I might not glaze over. A lot of other people have noted that this a really dramatic approach. Look, I've written for ANTI-ILLEGAL articles, and I've found that the writers that were posting crimes were the ones taken the least serious.

Immigration, legal and illegal, since the 60s, has hurt this nation. Along with the ever expanding welfare state that has acted as a catalyst to increase illegal immigration. The numbers on the affects of immigration on our country, and the burden it has become, have been placed in front of you, by me alone, several times. They ONLY add up one way. No matter how bad you don't like the answer.

How has it hurt the nation? We've had low unemployment up until now, an ever growing educated class, and an ever expanding economy. This is the first major recession since the 1970s...so what exactly is really wrong? Crime has decreased to its lowest levels in the 1990s and 2000s...the peak of illegal immigration. So did income, educational attainment, and economic growth.

 
Old 05-24-2009, 06:52 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,713,551 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
It shows that we have no innovation, no respect for our residents, and a strong xenophobia. We are not even close to being slaves to foreign nationals. The richest people in this nation are majority non-Hispanic White. Not at all a bad thing...again it is what it is, but is shows that they control the wealth and power in the nation, not foreign nationals. Helping others that live in our nation will benefit us as well.
It is always helpful when someone puts their cards on the table. If that is your opinion of the US, why are you even living here? What did you and your parents come here for?
 
Old 05-24-2009, 06:54 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,080,559 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
It is always helpful when someone puts their cards on the table. If that is your opinion of the US, why are you even living here? What did you and your parents come here for?
Thanks for keeping everything in context...umm, if you had you would have noticed that this was in response to the poster's immigration ideas. So this comment was made for the ideas put forth, not on America. Again, please keep things in its original context instead of twisting and misplacing things.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 07:28 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,713,551 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
EXPLAIN the complexities. If you truly understand the complexities that you claim people are ignoring, then you should be able to explain them.

Well, we have current economic considerations (massive rehiring and firing, taxable sales, amount of money in social security), we have political considerations (how do we treat illegals while still being on good terms with Mexico, esp. now more than ever we do need friends in this world), social (human rights, what are basic rights, what type of message do we want to sent the world). Also illegal immigration is highly interconnected with class issues and globalization. Illegal immigration is a symptom of predatory neo-colonialism. In the US, illegal immigrants are among the poor typically. So poor citizens use the same services as poor illegal immigrants. Since typically poor citizens are of color, the two groups can get lumped by generalized statements (I hate the illegal gang banger type, or I hate the illegals who make little money...two groups lumped into illegal). So the issue really becomes how do we promote class equality within the US and abroad.
1. current economic considerations (massive rehiring and firing, taxable sales, amount of money in social security)

I am unsure what massive rehiring and firing has to do with illegal immigration. I assume you consider the sales tax they pay and contributions to SS to be net positives, but I suspect they are more than offset by the costs of free medical care, the costs of educating their children who are in the US illegally, loss of property values in neighborhoods where clown houses open, increased auto insurance rates because of uninsured drivers, free school meals, the costs of ESL and remedial education and other expenses.

2. political considerations (how do we treat illegals while still being on good terms with Mexico, esp. now more than ever we do need friends in this world)

I can guarantee you that we treat Mexican illegals far better than they treat anyone who enters Mexico illegally. Frankly, I see no reason why we should seek to be on good terms with a nation that habitually dumps it's poor people on us, complains bitterly when we send them back and throws a tantrum when we talk about securing our border. With friends like that, who need enemies?

3. social (human rights, what are basic rights, what type of message do we want to sent the world)

Illegal aliens have more rights and receive better treatment here than many do in their home countries. Basic rights? What's your idea of a basic right? The right to illegally squat in a country of your choosing and demand citizenship? The message that we send to the world is that we are suckers, we can be easily duped and taken advantage of. All you need to do is lay on a little guilt. That's why illegal aliens keep heading for El Norte and Uncle Sucker, I mean Uncle Sam. You can't possibly think they actually appreciate any of the things that they get here, do you?


Quote:
Illegal immigration is a symptom of predatory neo-colonialism.
Kindly elaborate.

Quote:
Also illegal immigration is highly interconnected with class issues and globalization. Illegal immigration is a symptom of predatory neo-colonialism. In the US, illegal immigrants are among the poor typically. So poor citizens use the same services as poor illegal immigrants. Since typically poor citizens are of color, the two groups can get lumped by generalized statements (I hate the illegal gang banger type, or I hate the illegals who make little money...two groups lumped into illegal). So the issue really becomes how do we promote class equality within the US and abroad
Do you understand that a) poor American citizens and legal residents and b) poor illegal aliens are two different groups? It does not matter if they both use the same services, one is here legally and the other is not. We do not exist in some sort of Global Tribal Village no matter how fervently you wish we did. We have a duty to help poor Americans and legal residents. Mexico and their other home countries have a duty to help their citizens residing illegally in the US.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
470 posts, read 508,426 times
Reputation: 135
We can do them both simultaneously. They attend the same schools, go to the same hospitals, live in the same neighborhoods. Hence why I'm saying the interconnectedness of class and illegal immigration. They are a part of the their (the poor) community. I look at my present and future bills to decide where to place a priority.

In one post you talk as if it is more financially tangible to do this or that, now we can just do both. You look at present and future bills? You for saw the recession and planned for that? You know when you house is going to burn down? When you will have a car wreck? Lose your job? I deal with the real numbers, the "what ifs" are never certain. I KNOW that illegals cost us money, I KNOW that if they were gone it would ease the strain on the system, I KNOW that a REAL wall would cut a huge chunk out of our illegal immigration problems, I KNOW that is you cut social welfare services to illegals we would save money, I KNOW that if illegals could not use anchor babies it would curtail some illegal immigration, and I also KNOW you KNOW I am right on these. I don't need ifs, the real numbers don't lie.

Life is never simple. Esp. when dealing with immigration in a nation of fairly recent immigrants. We have no precedent to deal with illegal immigration. It's okay if it is complex. In fact, it's better since it forces people to look at all the factors (I posted a short list with short explinations on this thread...there probably more I've overlooked).

So in the face of no clear plan of action or former precedent we just say oh screw it let them stay? That in and of its self set precedent! It tells forigners wishing to come here illegally they can do so givin they are stingy enough, numerous enough, and can become "interconnected" enough as to appear IMPOSSIBLE to dispose of? That is infact precedent.

Yet, Hispanics are about the national average in terms of incarceration rates.
I never claimed that they were! YOU stated that they had lower crime rates! In fact they do not.

Our nation became even more prosperous after that. So what went wrong? I mean, we should have some enforcement...how much I really don't know. With that though, we should also see what is the best way to help those already living in the US. You pay for schools of the children of rapists, the children of legal drug dealers, etc. These are shared costs. We do it so our nation can still run smooth. I think that this might be the best way.

But they are here legally. We have court systems and laws for our native citizens as well. Whether or not I pay for a native citizen is totally different from paying for illegals!
Do you not see that we have become what we are largely in spite of ourselves. A corvette with two 300 lb passengers is fast, that same car with one 150lb is even faster. Get it? You act like it some how helped to better our economic situation when the numbers clearly show that it cause problems! We expanded and grew in spite of the shortcomings in decisions made on immigration.

I never said the majority does work for cash. You stated that. ITIN and non-functional SS #s account for the tax revenue.

Yes I did state that, however you said by allowing them amnesty that they would magically begin to contribute to our tax system. Whether or not their SS number is functional will be of no matter if they don't get a real paycheck to have that SS money deducted from. Again LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, immigrants take out far more than they put in to our system. By working for cash AND having a SS number they get the best of both worlds.

It shows that we have no innovation, no respect for our residents, and a strong xenophobia. We are not even close to being slaves to foreign nationals. The richest people in this nation are majority non-Hispanic White. Not at all a bad thing...again it is what it is, but is shows that they control the wealth and power in the nation, not foreign nationals. Helping others that live in our nation will benefit us as well.

Talk about hypocrisy. Why don't foreigners become innovative and help their mother countries to improve instead of piggy backing onto OUR success, thus dragging us down to their level?

No respect for our residents!?!?!? Illegals have no respect for our residents!!

Xenophobia? I only wish that we could have immigration of old. If we could have doctors, lawyers, professors, stone masons, attorneys place at the top of the list of possible immigrants. Instead we have chain migration which gives preference to family of resident aliens who may or may not have anything real to offer our nation. Xenophobe? You like I am fearful of people who are undereducated, unskilled, that do not assimilate, that believe that the southwest is theirs anyways, that are ever persistent, and are doing all this on the largest scale in history? Yeah if that is what you mean by xenophobe then sure thats me.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,822,205 times
Reputation: 3028
That1guy, In other words, you believe illegal aliens should receive ALL rights and privileges afforded U.S. citizens. Is that your position?
 
Old 05-24-2009, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Texas
470 posts, read 508,426 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
How has it hurt the nation? (1)We've had low unemployment up until now, (2)an ever growing educated class, and an ever expanding economy. This is the first major recession since the 1970s...so what exactly is really wrong? (3)Crime has decreased to its lowest levels in the 1990s and 2000s...the peak of illegal immigration. (4)So did income, educational attainment, and economic growth.

1- Illegal immigrants are not figured into unemployment numbers. That being said so what if we prospered in spite of illegal immigration?

2-What? In a 2009 report from the Center for Immigration Studies, "At least 6.5 million illegal immigrants worked outside of agriculture in the first quarter of 2009. The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants have a high school degree or less." Our natives may be more educated, which is where you get you numbers, but the illegal influx is by and large UNDEREDUCATED. Thus more apt to be on welfare!!!

Yes the economy was expanding, again in spite of illegal immigration, however now that we have hit the skids we are taking a closer look at the costs of illegal immigration and choosing to act on it. Also I am 24, I'm sorry I wasn't more involved in immigration reform in my early teens... I liked bicycles.

3- Isn't coming here illegally breaking a law? Isn't driving with no real license breaking the law? Isn't applying for welfare with no SS or citizenship breaking the law? They are breaking the law on many front. Crime in the since of rape and murder may have dropped, I don't know for certain, but the very essence of the illegal being here increases crime.

4- Again, yes the economy got better and expanded, that does not however mean that illegals helped. They drove down labor costs and profited some but they did not help. Think of all the tax money, Medicare, SS, FICA that was not paid do to them being here.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 08:03 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,080,559 times
Reputation: 822
In one post you talk as if it is more financially tangible to do this or that, now we can just do both. You look at present and future bills? You for saw the recession and planned for that? You know when you house is going to burn down? When you will have a car wreck? Lose your job? I deal with the real numbers, the "what ifs" are never certain. I KNOW that illegals cost us money, I KNOW that if they were gone it would ease the strain on the system, I KNOW that a REAL wall would cut a huge chunk out of our illegal immigration problems, I KNOW that is you cut social welfare services to illegals we would save money, I KNOW that if illegals could not use anchor babies it would curtail some illegal immigration, and I also KNOW you KNOW I am right on these. I don't need ifs, the real numbers don't lie.

Well, I've always stated it's possible to help poor citizens and illegal immigrants. That hasn't changed. You can plan ahead. My parents saved money prior to the crash. My friend who actually lost her house in 2003 to the fires in SoCal had fire insurance. I've been in a wreck and had car insurance and health insurance. It's calling planning for the "what ifs".
How do you know a reall wall will cut back on immigration. In fact after the wall went up in San Diego, immigration went east. There are tons of ways to cross still. If you cut services and education, geez, well I hope you know the rest. It will hurt us more in the long run. "Ifs" are a large part of the immigration debate.



So in the face of no clear plan of action or former precedent we just say oh screw it let them stay? That in and of its self set precedent! It tells forigners wishing to come here illegally they can do so givin they are stingy enough, numerous enough, and can become "interconnected" enough as to appear IMPOSSIBLE to dispose of? That is infact precedent.

We now the potential risks of spending billions on a wall that will not work, on beefing up our police to find every illegal immigrant, and economic costs of businesses that will lose either employees or customers. Assimilation is the best method. That, we do have a precedent of.



I never claimed that they were! YOU stated that they had lower crime rates! In fact they do not.

Okay, maybe you got yourself confused...I KNOW I stated that they had average crime rates. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm


But they are here legally. We have court systems and laws for our native citizens as well. Whether or not I pay for a native citizen is totally different from paying for illegals!

This goes back to the point of equating criminals and illegal immigrants. So should the children of criminals pay for mom/dad sins? No, they have their own lives. If the are here illegally we should still help them since they are in this nation...thus we are protecting all of our assets by providing them a chance to become functional adults.

Do you not see that we have become what we are largely in spite of ourselves. A corvette with two 300 lb passengers is fast, that same car with one 150lb is even faster. Get it? You act like it some how helped to better our economic situation when the numbers clearly show that it cause problems! We expanded and grew in spite of the shortcomings in decisions made on immigration.

See you fail to mention the actual causes of this crisis. My point was also not to show how illegal immigrants helped in creating our growth. I'm simply pointing out we grew, decreased crime, increased overall educational attainment (even though the poorest residents of our nation saw stagnation).



Yes I did state that, however you said by allowing them amnesty that they would magically begin to contribute to our tax system. Whether or not their SS number is functional will be of no matter if they don't get a real paycheck to have that SS money deducted from. Again LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, immigrants take out far more than they put in to our system. By working for cash AND having a SS number they get the best of both worlds.

No I simply stated that they currently pay taxes. Many illegal immigrants pay up at tax time - USATODAY.com. In SS, they contribute WAY more than they will or currently recieve.


Well, all nations need to be innovative. That's includes us.

Talk about hypocrisy. Why don't foreigners become innovative and help their mother countries to improve instead of piggy backing onto OUR success, thus dragging us down to their level?

No respect for our residents!?!?!? Illegals have no respect for our residents!!

Xenophobia? I only wish that we could have immigration of old. If we could have doctors, lawyers, professors, stone masons, attorneys place at the top of the list of possible immigrants. Instead we have chain migration which gives preference to family of resident aliens who may or may not have anything real to offer our nation. Xenophobe? You like I am fearful of people who are undereducated, unskilled, that do not assimilate, that believe that the southwest is theirs anyways, that are ever persistent, and are doing all this on the largest scale in history? Yeah if that is what you mean by xenophobe then sure thats me.

At you're truthful.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 08:07 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,080,559 times
Reputation: 822
That1guy, In other words, you believe illegal aliens should receive ALL rights and privileges afforded U.S. citizens. Is that your position?

For the most part yeah. Healthcare, education, welfare (with stipulation of either work or education...I think that we need welfare that places an emphasis on worker training in general), public housing. Well, because I think we should grant amnesty. With some possible conditions (if any previous convictions have been found then jail or deportation, don't really know, depending on situation). We can make it work if we do have a program in place to allow easier legal immigration and deter illegal immigration. So again, it really boils down to the whole package.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,640,026 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
That1guy, In other words, you believe illegal aliens should receive ALL rights and privileges afforded U.S. citizens. Is that your position?

For the most part yeah. Healthcare, education, welfare (with stipulation of either work or education...I think that we need welfare that places an emphasis on worker training in general), public housing. Well, because I think we should grant amnesty. With some possible conditions (if any previous convictions have been found then jail or deportation, don't really know, depending on situation). We can make it work if we do have a program in place to allow easier legal immigration and deter illegal immigration. So again, it really boils down to the whole package.
OK: I'll bite: would you still feel that way if the majority of illegal aliens were Nordic White (or Black) vs. Mestizos from SoB?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top